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August 02, 2005

Beauty & Misogyny, Continued

Grim bravely replied to my post about feminism and ...well, other topics. He had some interesting things to say, many of which I agree with. To begin with, he linked to an article that took my premise way farther than I had intended (rather proving my point about highjacking the feminist movement):

Jeffreys, a revolutionary lesbian feminist, is pursuing her 30-odd-year mission to shift women out of their collective complacency. Beauty And Misogyny is her sixth book. Like the others, its central theme is an exploration of the use of sexuality by men to dominate women. Much of it is spent arguing that beauty practices - from make-up to breast implants - should be redefined as harmful cultural practices, rather than being seen as a liberating choice.

Most things in life can be beneficial or harmful, depending on the extreme to which one takes them or the uses to which they are put. I have long mocked the whole "men use sexuality to dominate women" meme. Balderdash. If anything, we women spend most of our time using our sexuality to dominate men! Indeed, sex is one of the few remaining weapons in our rapidly-vanishing arsenal now that most of us seem to have abandoned charm, femininity, and the womanly art of creating a soothing and tranquil atmosphere to come home to.

Grim mistakes my position (and this is my fault - I failed to state my position fully) when he says:

This is not a position restricted to revolutionary lesbian feminists, as Cassandra's post makes clear:
[A] woman ought to be doing [a particularly invasive sort of body modification] for her own satisfaction/convenience and not so she'll be 'good enough' to appear in your mental burlesque show after taking your kids to soccer...

Let me make one thing absolutely clear. Yes, I was angered by the porn standards thing and I will return to that in a moment. However, to say that men are using sexuality to "dominate" women implies that we are spineless twits (or if you really want to be crude - and more accurate - substitute the appropriate vowel) incapable of making our own decisions.

My issue with feminine behavior in this regard is exactly that: an issue with female behavior. To blame men for decisions made by women is not only unfair, but demeaning to us. If women are being "dominated" or "controlled" by men in any sense, (and often, they are) it is because they allow themselves to be.

That said, let's look at what Grim had to say about men:

I think we need to get one thing clear. "Men" are not asking you to do any of this stuff.

When was the last time a man said, "And be sure to spend twenty minutes preparing yourself before we go out to the grocery store"?

I am of two minds about this. My first reaction was: fair enough. My husband seems most attracted to me (God love him) right after I get out of the shower when I don't have a blessed bit of makeup on and my hair is still wringing wet. And I will never forget the time when we were first married, back in college, when I spent hours laboriously applying *red* nail polish to my hands and feet (that is so not me), curled my long hair, did my makeup, put on cologne and a lovely white negligee...and then sat there while the man I loved watched the NBA finals on our tiny black and white TV! The next night he came home to find me on my hands and knees, hot and tired, scrubbing old wax off the linoleum floor with a razor blade and passionately carried me off to the back of the house. It was at that moment that I decided I will never understand the male of the species.

But there are also some other distinctions to be made here, I think. Grim goes on:

What's the evidence that men are driving this trend? Cassandra cites a Cosmo study on "what men want." Any of you guys out there ever been interviewed for one of these things?

Me either.

Cosmo is a fashion magazine published by women, for women. The only men they know are men who work in the fashion industry, i.e., not regular men. Men who are, as the article puts it, "accustomed" to certain standards of feminine appearance... because they're used to seeing it that way in porno movies.

Grim speaks of "regular men". And I think that's a point that needs to be made, too. There are all sorts of men in the world. This is something my father told me as a young girl and I never really believed him, to be honest, until just this last year. What convinced me was the Internet.

I have had close relationships with boys and men all my life. I was a bit of a tomboy as a young girl; more likely to play football or race bikes with the neighborhood boys than to play Barbie with the girls. From seventh grade through college, I always seemed to have a steady boyfriend. I think part of ninth grade was the only time I ever enjoyed a little time on my own. And I have always had male friends - often close ones. I've raised two sons and have had some amazingly frank discussions with both of them, often because their father was gone and I had to be both mother and father to them. So I thought - I really thought - until about a year ago, that I had a pretty good handle on how men think. I have really had my eyes opened.

As much as it pains me to admit this (and he is laughing at me now, I'm sure) my Dad was right, all those years ago. And I now remember part of what was so incredibly painful for me when I left a college where there were 3.5 guys for every girl: the dawning realization that my somewhat rose-colored view of men was just that. That there are many, many of what I would call "proper" men: good, decent, hard-working men of generally very good character. And then there are some guys out there with some pretty awful attitudes about women. Just like there are some women out there with some pretty awful attitudes about men, but I don't have to deal with that, and that is not the subject of this post.

Grim wonders (I think) where I got the idea that some men get their idea of what is attractive from porn. I got it from the Internet. I didn't grow up in a household where there was any exposure to porn. That was unthinkable. It wasn't mentioned. It wasn't necessarily taboo, I don't think. My father just was not that kind of person. I never saw porn (even skin mags) in any of my friend's houses either. I never saw it in my in-laws' house. It has never entered my house. I don't presume to tell my husband what to do when I am not around, and I don't ask. I don't seek to control his behavior, because I would be furious if he sought to control mine. On the other hand, he is invariably considerate of my feelings, as I try to be of his.

So one thing I, even at my age, knew almost nothing about up until now was how prevalent pornography has become in our society. Oh, I worked in the Navy Exchange as a young women and sold skin magazines to sailors, so obviously I knew it existed. But until I was exposed to the Internet and read conversations on the subject, I had absolutely no idea how immersed in this stuff many guys are. And I've been very curious about it, frankly, both because of my strong reactions to it and because I am always curious about how people think. I've been really somewhat shocked and saddened to see, over and over again, that men who do look at this stuff all the time do seem to have a really critical view of women's bodies.

All of a sudden it's like they're judge and jury - I keep wondering how they'd like to be displayed out there for a bunch of women to "rate" their overall hottitude. Somehow I very much doubt most of them would fare very well. And I suppose one can make the argument, "Well, she put herself out there...". But it seems to me, at least, that most of these women are really quite attractive by almost any standard you care to name. And yet these cads get off by running them down.

And I have noticed in real life that this same type of man is very critical of women in real life. He is the type of man who does judge on appearances. Who is constantly turning to look at other women when he is out with his wife or girlfriend. Who goes for the woman who dresses flashily, or has big boobs, or has the surface beauty but nothing underneath. He is not what I would call a man of substance. We have an acquaintance, a man I rather like, who I think falls into this category. He has been divorced several times. He keeps falling for the same kind of woman - superficially very attractive, but with no soul. And she takes him to the cleaners every time. And he complains about it and has a very jaded view of women. But he'd never give a plainer, more substantial woman the time of day, even after all these bad experiences. It's funny. He likes me a lot. I'm not bad looking either: certainly no beauty, but attractive enough in my own way. But if I were single, I don't think he'd date me. The funny thing is, I can tell he is attracted to me. But in the end, I don't have the right packaging, and that is fortunate because he's the kind of guy who used to scare me to death when I was dating. Extremely smart, witty, good-looking, very charming, but for some reason warning bells go off. I have always preferred a more subtle kind of man - the kind who doesn't always grab your eye when he walks into a room but when you talk to him in a quiet corner, can hold your interest for an evening. Or a lifetime.

But I think perhaps in a society in which there are different strata and subcultures, that is what many women are dealing with. I have had friends whose fathers, frankly, do very much view women as primarily sex objects. I have one friend - more a friend of a friend really, because we don't have much in common and she annoys me - who I think spends way too much time on her personal appearance. But to be honest she'll be the first to tell you her *Dad* raised her that way. Not her Mom - her Dad. This woman spends all her time trying to measure up to what her Dad and her husband expect of her. Not what *she* expects. What *they* expect.

It is an interesting facet of modern life that we are exposed to TV and books and big ideas, so as a conservative, I normally argue that we are not mere products of our environment. Yet environment is powerful, especially when upbringing consistenly nudges you in a particular direction. My best friend and I are always talking about this woman, shaking our heads and wondering why she doesn't grow a bit more of a backbone. But then we look at how far she has come, compared with her Mother, and sometimes I feel like we're being a bit harsh. She does stand up to her husband in small ways. And she is unhappy. She has enough of a backbone to be friends with us (God help her - her husband can't be too happy about that).

In short, I agree with Grim. Misogyny is way too strong a word. And in the end, women must bear the responsibility for their own choices. I never meant to suggest otherwise. However, I still do think male expectations play a larger role in this than Grim believes. The fact that he (and other men) may be a bit higher-minded doesn't mean there aren't plenty of guys out there who are critical and controlling. That some women choose to let that type of behavior dictate their personal choices, however, is their own fault.

Again, to me this is the difference between the conservative view of feminism and the liberal: personal responsibility. The world is what it is. You can't change it. You can only control how you respond to it.

Posted by Cassandra at August 2, 2005 06:06 AM

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Yes. I agree.

The Engineer does the same thing. I think it has to do with sweat (Oh, can I say 'sweat' instead of glow?) producing pheromones that only they can smell. He also pounces on me when I least expect it. Too funny.

Posted by: Cricket at August 2, 2005 08:12 AM

I have never figured that out either, Cricket. Is it the whole hunting instinct thing? The word 'pounce' may be operative here. Do they just like chasing you when they know you're going to run away?


Posted by: Cassandra at August 2, 2005 08:49 AM

I think it is the male of the species. They certainly get a kick out of the element of surprise.

At my bridal shower, which was attended by VERY religious women (hens don't lay eggs, you see, and cows didn't have calves, etc), they gave me a beautiful pegnoir set. Lacy and see through, etc.
I didn't examine it more thoroughly or I would have seen that the hem of the nightgown was sewn shut...

I asked the Engineer about it once. He just smiled but gave me a pretty neat answer. He said he loved being able to come home and know that all was in order in his world. He didn't care what I looked like, it was the fact that I was home and
committed to him and us and doing my share as I saw it.

To him, that was true equality; we both had our jobs and we did them and supported each other in so doing.

Then again, it could have been the pheromones.
He thinks that me working outside is the biggest turnon. I am wearing ratty outside work clothes,
have my hair up, sweatband around my head, glasses
askew and he can't wait...


Posted by: Cricket at August 2, 2005 09:06 AM

He said he loved being able to come home and know that all was in order in his world. He didn't care what I looked like, it was the fact that I was home and committed to him and us and doing my share as I saw it.

...yep, he's a Capricorn, isn't he? :) There is nothing sexier (and more energetic) on the face of this earth. But then that's from another earth sign.

Men are wonderful sometimes, aren't they?

Posted by: Cassandra at August 2, 2005 09:17 AM

Don't get me wrong, lingerie can be very nice :-), but at the same time you ladies look great when you are, for lack of better words, relaxed and comfortable in your own skin. You are at your sexiest when you don't look like you're *trying* to be sexy.

Getting back to the issue, Grim is correct in saying that men usually ask women to not spend the extra 20 minutes getting ready to go to the store or out to eat.

But there is a difference between what a man wants, needs, expects, desires from the one woman he loves, and what generic men wants, needs, expects, desires from women in general.

Let's face it, there is a reason why Hooters stays in business and it ain't their chicken wings. There is a reason why Brittany Spears is a household name, and it ain't her singing.

Yes, those industries put that stuff out there, but they wouldn't if men didn't buy it.

That is why in my comment to the first post, i made sure to make the distinction between what women might choose to do for their man, and what they might choose to do for "men". If a woman wants to undergo said permanent body modification, because her husband likes it and she wants to please him, I'll say the decision is well founded. If she wants to do it because "men" in general expect it of her, I'll say she's being an idiot (of course, people have the right to be idiots).

Posted by: Masked Menace© at August 2, 2005 09:34 AM

Yes, he is a Capricorn. Men are great!

MM, I would agree with you about Britney and say that girls buy it as well.

That is what saddens me. Young girls who don't know any better buying into the myth. I opined over at the donovan's that brainwashing starts early.

Posted by: Cricket at August 2, 2005 09:42 AM

But there is a difference between what a man wants, needs, expects, desires from the one woman he loves, and what generic men wants, needs, expects, desires from women in general.

Exactly, Menace.

And moreover, I'd argue (and was trying to argue this earlier) that there is a difference between what men expect from a woman after they commit to her and what they expect while they're still free - what it may take to attract a man in the first place. Hence my post.

And your comment ties in with Grim's about types of men (or maybe just men's expectations) and something my husband said at the dinner table last night. He was at the gym and was commenting on overhearing a bunch of Navy guys (all married, by the way) talking about how they'd just been to Hooters.

And he was shaking his head, because to him that is not a thing you do after you're married, but these guys apparently (from their conversation) go all the time and then talk about it loudly in the gym. And that's exactly what I mean about people having very different expectations.

And I'll agree with your last statement, Menace, as long as she genuinely has no problem with the procedure. What you're not considering is that all of these procedures have medical risks (some of them quite significant). Breast implants have caused some pretty bad auto-immune reactions in some women. Even laser hair removal has side effects - some people get bad burns or have permanent photo-sensitivity or pigmentation problems as a result. So you are risking your health. You have to ask, is it really worth it?

Again, a personal decision, but the fact that more men don't make it is very telling to me.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 2, 2005 09:51 AM

Good point,

The former stands only if both people agree the risks are acceptable, but the latter stands even if it were risk free.

Posted by: Masked Menace© at August 2, 2005 11:03 AM

Mr. Menace, I am weighing a reply, having twice now typed and erased it. Boy is this a fraught topic :)

Please do allow me to say that if I have often been disturbed by what I have learned of other men this year, my faith has been restored more often than I can tell by the gentlemen of this blog.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 2, 2005 01:39 PM

So let it be commented, so let it be done!

One of my two remaining friends from high school is just like the guy you mentioned - goes for the superficial, and ignores the substantive.

And is even now wrecking the first substantive relationship he ever had.

The real tragedy with him is there are five kids trailing in the wreckage of his life.

Posted by: John of Argghhh! at August 2, 2005 01:40 PM


When was the last time a man said, "And be sure to spend twenty minutes preparing yourself before we go out to the grocery store"?

I always thought women dressed for men in the bedroom, and for women outside of it.

Posted by: CommonSense at August 2, 2005 01:43 PM

You know John, the thing is, I *like* this person.

He is, at heart I think, a good man. I see kindness in him. It puzzles me greatly to see him behave this way. But he is a walking Madonna/whore complex if ever I saw one, and dammitall, women aren't that simple and he sure doesn't seem to want a Madonna.

/edited before she gets herself into trouble, for the fourth time today. I need to learn to shut up.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 2, 2005 01:45 PM

Oh, sweet mystery of life! It is the conflict of the seen and unseen, the physical and the meta-physical.
To the unfamiliar, the physical attraction drives the sexxxual arousal. Of course, all that make-up, hair-do and other accouterments appeal to the superficial male.
But upon gaining familiarity, the metaphysical qualities of men and women begin to gain appeal, to each other.

I once knew a girl in my wasted youth that I was terribly infatuated with, because she was cute, but also because she was very bright and very capable in the chemistry lab, and just watching her do labwork was a real turn-on (go figure) just because it showed a part of her inner make-up that was appealing to me (like working in the garden, etc.).

The strident materialists (and you know who you are!) insist that we are nothing more than meat on two feet, and that sexual attraction is nothing more that flat abs, big breasts, etc.
Wrong! That's just half the person, man or woman (Menace, give up on those breast implants, man. That silicon is no good for you!).
The meta-physical, the unseen, the mystery of that part of God made into mortal man, that remains the joy (and sorrow) of the life of the flesh on Earth.
Or maybe not. I'm really just guessing about this.

Posted by: David at August 2, 2005 01:50 PM

I've obviously impressed you, but I am not due the reputation for clean high-mindedness. Let's be clear: I've been in the Marine Corps, I've been a bounty hunter, I've been a private detective, I've worked 'for the unions,' and I've done some other things too. I don't doubt that some of them would shock you. What I aspire to is not cleanliness, but forgiveness.

It's not like I don't know what pornography is: in fact, I know what it is, and I broadly approve of it, as far as it goes. Providing that it is adults, that they consent, that they enjoy it, and that they remember it's fantasy -- four fairly strict provisions -- I figure it's no business of mine.

Let people have their fun. Life is short. We only see so many mountaintops, and only know so many broken hearts. Those of us who live boldly hurt more, but like the old song says (one of Doc Russia's favorites, so he said on his blog):

If you're bent with 'arthuritis',
and your bowels have got colitis,
you've got galloping bollockitis,
and you're thinking, it's time you died!
If you've been a man of action,
and you're lying there in traction,
you will gain some satisfaction,
thinking - Jesus, at least I tried!
That sort of prayer, as prayer generally, is the last thing bad men like me have to comfort us.

I trust in the next world, where we will be able to love one another without the frailities of this fallen one. And, so trusting, I take my hope in faith.

Do you understand? If there is a difference between men, it is only that: some of us believe, and others don't. Those who do, forgive women and love them because we know how much we are hurt ourselves. The ones who don't -- well, they just haven't learned yet. It's a hard world, a cruel one, and it will teach them all at last.

So that is where we differ. Pornography is a fantasy, one that treats another kind of world. In this one, there is too much pain. The only kinds of men, and women, are those who have learned that -- and those who are still too young.

"Men" who are still -that- young are not yet Men, regardless of their age. Yet I can hold no hate for them. If I dismiss them from my calculations, it is for that reason. Pain will come to them in time. All too soon, they will cry as Alfred did, as these poor young women do, for...

...the starkness of my evil youth,
Before my griefs began.
My own prayer is closer to Eldred's -- I regret being a fool. But there we are.

If I and mine love the women about us, it is in spite of all of this madness about fashion and appearance. It is not because of it. Women should know that from the start. That they do not is a wrong done by the prophets of the Fashion Industry. Even in 'the starkness of my evil youth,' it was no fault of mine or those like me. I was always clear about whom, and why, I loved.

I never asked anyone to adhere to the standards of pornography, though I knew of them as well as a member of the Marine Corps might be expected to know. I never believed it was real, as prevalent as it was; and I cannot believe that many do, save only those few who were bigger fools than I. Perhaps there are more such than I think, but I cannot believe it is so.

Posted by: Grim at August 2, 2005 02:03 PM

No silicone for me, David. I know the reason for the attraction, but I just don't understand it. If that's what both of you want (and deem the risk acceptable) then have at it. It wouldn't be my choice, but it's not up to me. I won't go as far as John and say there's no such thing as a bad boob, but it's pretty dern close.

And besides, the I like the LG's just fine, thankyouverymuch :-)

Posted by: Masked Menace© at August 2, 2005 02:10 PM

Grim, I will vouch that it is likely more prevelant than you might think. But as you say, I don't really count a lot of them as Men, except chronologically.

Posted by: Masked Menace© at August 2, 2005 02:20 PM

Oh, I understand completely. All of us who look after this dolt like him. Good thing, or he'd be friendless and alone...

But we also shake our heads and call him "clueless a$$hole" behind his back.

And he is, just that. Clueless. He simply *can't* see it.

But he introduced me to SWWBO, so I've got his back until the end of time.

Posted by: John of Argghhh! at August 2, 2005 02:33 PM

Grim, though I am an idealist, it is not because I can't see the bad, or even can't forgive it. I doubt there is anyone around more forgiving, or willing to forgive, than I am. Believe it or not, I have made a few bad mistakes in my life and there is very little that shocks me except when people show no desire to better themselves.

And yes, you have impressed me... but I kind of like you anyway :) Don't worry - my 'high-minded' was just a bit snarky and just a bit based on several things I've heard you say that remind me of my husband, who I happen to think is a wonderful man. And did I say "clean-minded"??? Hmmmm. I think they may be two entirely different things - as you noted, you can believe without necessarily being entirely pure of heart :)

In the meantime, you'll just have to learn to live with all this female adulation.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 2, 2005 02:39 PM

What a fascinating and revealing conversation. I think I love every one of you--what marvelous people! As for the males in this group, the old cliche holds true: "All the good ones are taken." I have yet to meet a man like those who have commented here who wasn't already married--and usually far older than I.

On one hand this conversation gives me hope, on the other it discourages me terribly because I am one of those kinds of women Cassandra spoke of on her previous post--one who doesn't play the game and thus is always unattached, though known by her friends as a marvelous person.

Posted by: anonymous at August 2, 2005 03:05 PM

I wouldn't think of commenting on the fairness of your gentle wife (LG), Menace. I meant YOU!:)
Stay away from those implants, no matter how they improve you catching abilities, and appearance! :)

Hey, that Grim-guy said the same thing I did except in a cooler and more manly way. Geez, do I feel like a rabbit-chested-geek-girly man. Menace, hand me those implants! Spd Rdr, gimme those high heels!

Posted by: David at August 2, 2005 03:18 PM


*looks around sheepishly*

Didn't think anyone saw that. :-p

Posted by: Masked Menace© at August 2, 2005 03:33 PM

As you wish, Cassandra, David. But be ware of what you are getting in the bargain. Kind words are kind indeed, so long as you know what you adopt in the process.

Posted by: Grim at August 2, 2005 03:49 PM

A thought about some men, general men, and *those* men:

Being a married guy with a bunch of bachelor friends, I see the *those* men attitude quite a bit. I can imagine the reasoning behind the pressure for women to dress up (although why you'd want to for my friends, I don't know... but that's an awful thing to think;). I would just like to add that some of the same reasons why women spend time doing themselves up are also the same reason why some of these men act the way they do. That being, that in certain situations, some men feel they are expected to be that way.

For instance, I know that some of my friends are sweet fellows, are brought up properly, and one-on-one are decent people. But, put them in a group setting with friends or peers, the beast emerges and the alpha-male/boasting/oafish mentality takes the front seat to impress their pals.

Not saying its acceptable. More tragic, really, as it feeds the cycle.

Posted by: ceramic at August 2, 2005 04:35 PM

Quite by accident I ended up with a classic era Playboy Playmate as a pen pal. We've had several interesting discussions, and one was on how men select favorite playmates. This was on a public forum, and there were many theories, most of which I doubt could possibly be true.

My theory ties into this discussion. There are women in the media whom I am assured are the flavor of the month. Reasonably often, I'm at a loss as to figuring how why. They may be pretty as a picture, but if there is no connection, they might as well be a statue. I opined that a key part of selecting a special woman from a group of beautiful women is the same one used when selecting a special woman from any other group of women. There has to be that sense of connection. The one that leads you to believe, either in the face of all proof to the contrary or on the basis of much evidence that you actually know them and more importantly, like and appreciate them.

The aforementioned Playmate knew I intended a vacation to California when I returned from the war last year. She suggested I time this to go to a convention in LA with large quantities of women from the so called glamour industry. I took advantage because not only do I like being around beautiful women, but I also got a break on the hotel bill. 8)

I discovered what I already knew. Some were not people I wanted to be around, and some were. I had a nice conversation with a woman who was long past her prime in terms of appearance, and of the 7 women that I talked to that I thought _might_ be able to pick me out of a lineup a week later, 5 were old enough to be my mother, while 1 was young enough to be my daughter, had I ever married.

If I had the choice of watching Pamela Anderson or Britney Spears or talking to the woman who was in Playboy before they took their own pictures again, it wouldn't even be close. Diane was far more interesting, told neat stories and acted like she had a personality other than spoiled rotten.

Now if I'd had the typical attitude that I'm assured men have when looking at the word from Women's Studies Groups and such, I'd have been more interested in those that were cheerfully submissive with pneumatic figures, for those were certainly present.

One thing that does come to mind after talking with those women is that many had very clear objectives in mind for their lives, one telling me she intended to earn her living off of her looks until she could make more money off of her nursing degree because she had children to support.

I was reminded of an observation seen years ago, that Feminism is all about choice. Provided the choice made is the one the feminists wanted you to make.

I'm not sure if that helps or hurts the discussion, but I suspect it will provide some grist for comment.

Posted by: Graves at August 2, 2005 05:01 PM

That makes sense. I have gotten the same feeling at times: that some men act this way at times more from insecurity than oafishness, if you'll pardon my saying so. That if they were more comfortable with themselves, they perhaps wouldn't act that way.

I used to notice when I was single that a lot of guys who were real jerks to other girls were often very gentle towards me. I think either they didn't think they needed to impress me, or maybe they just felt more relaxed and could be themselves.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 2, 2005 05:01 PM

I agree, insecurity would be the proper cause I think. However... oafishness is so much more fun to say!

Posted by: ceramic at August 2, 2005 05:20 PM

Well (this is to Graves) maybe this should be time for my oft-erased comment about porn. Or not. I'm really not sure.

Boy do men and women have a different attitude about it. It's really a fraught topic. And I wish I could talk about this.

Yet another erased comment...That's five now today.

But as good as I feel about the atmosphere here, I don't think I can. But let me say this. I don't look down on someone for choosing to pose in a magazine, if that is what you think. That is her decision, and as long as that decision is freely made, I do not view it as demeaning, nor her as a "victim".

Do I view pornography in general as demeaning to women? Yes, some of it I do. It is the tone of it that I find offensive, not the content necessarily. Naked bodies are not offensive.

Sex, in and of itself, is not offensive. But I don't like to see women hurt, or put in ugly, humiliating, or undignified positions, and I won't apologize for that. I don't like to see them degraded, and some porn does that. I don't like to see them grovel either, and there is a big market for that sort of thing.

It must have taken courage for your friend to do what she did, way back then. And a fair measure of independent-mindedness. I'm not surprised you found her interesting.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 2, 2005 05:27 PM

I still stand by Grim's post on his site. Women, if you all wore potatoe sacks men would still swoon.

And it isn't all one sided either: why are more of the younger men today(Andy the Wonderchild's cohort and younger--John's stepson) now thinking that to get a girl you have to be a mackdaddy, a 'pimp', or a playah? Because that's what a larger percentage of women are saying that they want. Of course then women complain when they get exactly a mackdaddy, a 'pimp', or a playah.

But us 'nice guys' get shafted until women figure out what they really want(and it turns out to be us).

Cuts both ways.

Guys will fantasize about Barbie dolls. But they marry someone who isn't a Barbie doll more times than not.

Women will swoon over sexy Bad Boys. But who they really choose to marry is far from the bad boy often times.

Posted by: ry at August 4, 2005 03:33 AM

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