Villainous Company

Hey, everybody needs an education, and well countries that can afford to re-educate you a second time....well...even if it isn't pretty...education is swell.

And a lot of those people with educations are prospering now. Gosh.

That mental genius came within whisker of being president.

A close shave, historically speaking. :)

Doug Zembiec was one helluva Marine. He led his Marines from the front heroically in Fallujah. When he was driving onto Camp Pendleton with his Dad, a sentry who served under him in Iraq said he would follow Zembiec into Hell with a spoon if he was leading them. (I read that at Blackfive). Schoolchildren should learn about him (but probably won't).

Then there is John Kerry.

Time will tell.

Well, you have two guys who represent two groups of people who want two different things. One seems sad one seems shallow. I'm not really swayed either way. These guys are...I hate to say it but whores. They will say and do anything to get what they want or need. So really, if you want the closest thing you can get to the truth it takes a lot of your own leg work and less listening to sappy stories, Michael Moore, Fox news and the like. As far as the whole "How could they even think of leaving all those people high and dry,"....it's not like no one has thought of that.1.) It's already happend in the gulf war. Many people died when Bush said rise up against Saddam, the people did, expecting the US would help. WE didn't. Many people died. Many more people angry with us for not helping. 2.) Well, for all those people that said Bush made the wrong decision by not going all the way to Bagdad, Bush II does it. We made the decision...and lets face its a bad decision at that... to go in and turn that country upside down. Well, now we see why Bush I thought it was a bad idea. Now these people are like toddlers in big surf and without us there they drown. Well, these are the consequences of bad forign policy. The majority of which comes from this administration after 9/11. Hey by the way there are probably about 25 to 30 guys as bad or worse than Saddam whose people are in bad shape. What about Darfur(SP?) I don't see anyone really making a fuss about those people. Why is it I see tough guys on this web site saying "sack up it's war" but when it comes to making the tough decisions like leaving a usless situation all of a sudden they become Alan Alda types and everyone else are Trolls eating billy goats under a bridge. However, if Bush can do what he said in his last speech, instead of going down as the worst president in history he could very well go down as one of the greatest. No one is pulling for him more than me. I think if we are going to do this we need to start supporting our troops. Not sticking Support the troop bumper stickers on our SUVs. Bring back the draft. We as a people ned to stop SHOPPING to to show our support which was the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Our guys need so much and we as a people DO NOTHING NOTHING for them except send cookies. We all need to make some big sacrifices. If we aren't willing to do that. We need to bring them home. It's just a waste of time. Oh and before some jag off asks me because I know it's coming I'll just head you off at the pass. Yes. I sold my car. Every month I buy a bus pass for 40.00 a month and I utilize public transportation to the fullest extent. And some days it is a pain in the ass. What do you do?

Well, Senator Kerry should know. We committed the atrocities, doncha know, and once we were gone, the VC quit killing the South Vietnamese.
Instead they all went to school to learn how to
be good communists after the horror of being exposed to Western democratic principles. And
why do I get this feeling that Kerry is acting like one of the Stepford Wives?

No.

We have one guy outright lying about what happened when we left Vietnam, Roland.

Spin it how you will. There is no escaping that.

And Roland, I have no idea who pulled your string tonight but there are a lot of people here doing considerably more than sending cookies and they don't need to justify themselves to you. If you knew a bit more about them, I don't think you would be taking cheap shots.

But I will say no more.

Two guys who represent two different things Roland? Wow Roland, welcome to the deep end of the pool. One guy who is grieving over the loss of a fine young man the other is a history revisionist to sooth his own guilt or leftist leanings. Yeah dude, that is the same.

Keep riding the bus. That will fix em.

Cheer up Pile.

Perhaps there is a career opportunity here. We hear there is a lot of money to be made in the re-education business. And as Kerry notes, it's not so bad once you get used to it.

You always look on the bright side Cass. I am convinced, when I am president not only will we educate, but I am putting afe in charge of re-education. He can learn the peasants up real good.

Ah, now I'm starting to get an answer to my earlier question re: patronage positions for early supporters.

The truly amazing thing about Kerry to me isn't so much that he almost became President; that was just because Bush was terribly unpopular even in 2004, and Kerry was the other choice.

What amazes me is that he was chosen as the Democratic Party's nominee... on the grounds that he was especially "electable." Probably any other candidate in the 2004 Democratic Primary would be President today if he'd been chosen instead.

Some lie about Vietnam...some lie about how we got to Iraq 6 of one have a dozen of the other if you think theres a difference I'm not sure what to tell you. Cassandra,stop taking things so personally. I ment us as in US as a country.which I don't think any one can deny..bumper stickers and shopping is not the equvelant of Rosie the riviter I don't change my opnions because people don't agree with me. No one need justify anything to me. Sorry if I gave that impression. Oh Pile On thanks man..Your right..Utilizing public transportation doing my part to use less fuel is one small way I can help. As far as your compare and contrast. Your so right...When a Pro-war person cries...it's sweet....Cindy Shehan Cries..scumbag..I can see how when I called Kerry a whore you might think I was really pushing my liberal leanings on you....makes perfect sense to me...Did you even read what I wrote?

At least we can all agree that Kerry is a whore...

Given that I have a Marine Sgt. who thinks that Edwards should be the next POS..... Wire brush!!!

lol...Thanks Camo. Just trying to bring people together.

I am one of the " whole slew of people who keep telling me that the people currently in charge are recklessly throwing away lives......."
and this is how they treat American citizen. This is just one example that happens to be in todays paper. Perhaps there is a video of Michael Chertoff welling up with tears that will prove that they really do care

oops here's the link

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/19/AR2007071901039.html?hpid=artslot

Well personally I am unsure exactly how falling in with al Qaeda's admitted plan to wreck our economy (and they openly admitted this was part of their plan, and if you recall, 9/11 was quite a crushing blow to the US economy) was going to be a boon to the troops as they fought over there and watched their jobs over here disappear and their families' standard of living erode.

Ooh-rah. What a victory. Thankfully some people could see beyond the end of their noses, especially as most enlisted families depend on two incomes.

And it also amazes me how you can look at two examples, again where two people are making statements and yes, they are both emoting but only one person is lying through their teeth, and you completely gloss over the fact that one is lying. The reason people think Sheehan is a scumbag is not that she cried.

It's the things she has done: lying about whether Bush visited her (he did), or whether he was sympathetic to her (according to her own account, he was), or whether her son Casey wanted to be in Iraq, (again, according to other members of her family, he did). If you are a liar, people think you are scummy.

And we've now had several investigations over whether the White House lied about the facts leading up the war. They have all concluded the same thing: the CIA itself slanted the intel it gave to the White House to look more grave on the topic of WMDs (about which there was at the time international consensus) but that there was no pressure from the White House to distort their findings.

So your allegations of lies leading up the war has no real basis in fact. Being found wrong (if they were wrong) AFTER THE FACT isn't a lie.

And of course Valerie Plame had nothing to do whatsoever with the CIA or when it comes to it, intelligence.

Pile, I would love for the CLUs to attend your
PC reeducation camp and go to sleep to the melodic strains of Slim Whitman. I myself will volunteer as the State's Chaplain, or 'Political Advisor.'

They can earn merit badges too...

It sounds exciting.

A modern day (sort of, only 20 years old) lyrical take on re-inventing history to suit the needs of progress. Sometimes call this revisionism.

The Man's Too Strong (Dire Straits)

I am just an aging drummer boy, and in the wars I used to play
And I've called the tune to many a torture session
Now they say I am a war criminal and I'm fading away
Father, please hear my confession

I have legalized robbery, called it belief
I have run with the money, I have hid like a thief
Re-written history with armies and my crooks
Invented memories, I did burn all the books

And I can still hear his laughter
And I can still hear his song
The man's too big
The man's too strong

Well I tried to be meek, I have tried to be mild
But I spat like a woman and sulked like a child
I have lived behind walls that have made me alone
Striven for peace which I have never known

Well the sun rose on the courtyard and they all did hear him say
"You always was a Judas, but I got you anyway
You may have got your silver but I swear upon my life
Your sister gave me diamonds and I gave 'em to your wife"

Oh father please help me
For I have done wrong
The man's too big
The man's too strong

Yes Roland I read your comment. It might surprise you but I have read plenty of comments from moderates and left leaners who get a feeling of moral and intellectual superiority by casting aspersions on the left and the right. Staying above the fray, finding moral equivalence no matter how different the actions of the two sides.

Peace out dude.

lol..Wow Pile....Putting that BA in Psyc to work are we?

Well Roland, why don't you use your enormous intelluctual powers and come up with a reason why someone would find the grieving over a young mans death and the denial of the slaughter of up to two million people as being somehow equivalent.

One is what decent people do, the other repulsive.

Do what I do. Outsource all your psyche profiling business to Neo-Neocon, Dr. Sanity, and Shrinkwrapped..

I don't change my opnions because people don't agree with me.

That reminded me of the last person that said they weren't affected by propaganda. Everybody is affected by propaganda, even those that know it for what it is.

It has already been demonstrately on a point to point source that it is easier to maintain a specific opinion if everyone around you agreed with it. It is far harder to maintain a specific opinion against society's belief that you are wrong, for you are then required to defend your thesis.

What amazes me is that he was chosen as the Democratic Party's nominee... on the grounds that he was especially "electable." Probably any other candidate in the 2004 Democratic Primary would be President today if he'd been chosen instead.
Posted by: Grim at July 19, 2007 10:39 PM

The Left likes to pretend that military uniforms and marching in step are things they have outgrown and ascended past. But these claims are pretty much on the level of snake oil in terms of quality.

It was partially based upon their belief that the part of America that disagreed with them and still supported Bush, would be swayed by pretty uniforms and gruesome stories of war crimes and herorism. They did and still believe you all to be as shallow (or guillible) as that. However, their choices demonstrate that it is they who are shallow, but of course few people talk about that. The Rall Rolitics new cartoon up, which is only a continuation of a whole other slew of anti-mil tech, is only just the recent example. Whatever the Left is talking about, you may be assured that the real truth is 90 degrees out of phase of reality, or even 180 degrees.

Keep riding the bus. That will fix em.
Posted by: Pile On® at July 19, 2007 10:07 PML

Short buses save on gasoline, no?

If you knew a bit more about them, I don't think you would be taking cheap shots.

He's not taking cheap shots, he is just mirroring your words because he thinks what is true for him should be true for you, Cass. That's not cheap; it is parasitic.

We all need to make some big sacrifices.

You might wish to consider Buddhism or one of the faiths of Ilmater, the crying god. Because there's plenty of faiths out there that deem sacrifice to be a big thing.

If you also wish to lash yourself, I do believe there are some S and M outgrowths in the main city enclaves, somewhere.

We all need to make some big sacrifices.

You might wish to consider Buddhism or one of the faiths of Ilmater, the crying god. Because there's plenty of faiths out there that deem sacrifice to be a big thing.

If you also wish to lash yourself, I do believe there are some S and M outgrowths in the main city enclaves, somewhere.

Ymarsakar, that was truly evil :p

We'll have none of that sort of thing going on in my comments section! This is a family site... ummm.. well... nevermind.

You guys kill me.

Roland -

Your spelling and grammar are almost as bad as your reasoning. If you must believe what you believe, please work on improving your writing. (Hint: Learn the difference between "your" and "you're.") Better writing won't increase the chance that readers will agree with your arguments but it certainly will make reading what you write less painful.

Deana

OK guys.

War is an emotional subject. Roland was not around here when we were talking about the Harriet Miers brouhaha, but one thing I've always been proud of around here is that even though we may get steamed at each other occasionally when we're discussing subjects we feel passionately about and the quips may start flying, people are capable of backing down and being friendly at the end of the day.

Let's not let this degenerate into rancor, all right?

I have never had any objection to a bit of sharp wit to make your point. We are all big boys and girls and humor, wit, and even taking things to the illogical extreme are well known ways of making points (heck - Mark Twain and other authors used them!) or venting some of the tension that builds up when we are arguing our points. But there's a fine line we have to observe on both sides - that of the arguer and of the one receiver in not being too quick to take read too much into a comment.

That way, we stay friends when it's all over. Let's try not to angry with each other :)

We have all lost too many people in this war. Roland has lost a brother, which doesn't entitle him to say absolutely anything, but does explain why he feels particularly strongly about the subject. And considering that this is so, he had tried very hard to entertain our points of view dispassionately, with which he really does not agree. I cannot imagine how hard that must be.

I think that just became too difficult the other night and the human factor intervened.

Let's all just back down and start over if we can, OK?

Cassandra –

As always, you are correct. And Roland, I do apologize for being so sharp with you. I should not have been.

Roland, the thing that troubles me is your unwillingness to acknowledge the differences between someone like Kerry and someone like Bush. It is NOT that President Bush is always correct and Sen. Kerry is consistently wrong and dishonest. It is more that the things that motivate these two men are radically different.

Even before September 11th, the President had plenty of tasks to tackle. After that day, there was more to do than any President could possibly accomplish. We already had one difficult war on our hands. Starting a war that would be difficult and unpopular could not possibly have been viewed as something that would benefit him politically. (And no one who claims that “he started” this war to obtain personal financial gain has ever been able to produce any evidence that supports that claim. Surely there are easier and less stressful ways to make a buck.) Indeed, President Bush has paid a terrific political – and I would say personal - price for his convictions. And yet he has stood by them. He has risked everything on this. There will never be a day in his life that he does not carry in his heart the knowledge that many men and women gave up all of their tomorrows because of this war. It would have been much, much easier to have just said no and just hope that all the concerns about the Middle East would just go away.

Then there is Senator Kerry. One definition of “whore” is to compromise one’s principles for personal gain. He has a very bad habit of saying things and indicating that he supports things depending on the crowd he is addressing. Do you honestly believe that he would have said that lots of people who were in Vietnamese re-education camps are thriving if he had been in front of constituents who were Vietnamese Americans? Do you think he would have said that same “joke” about how if you don’t study and get a good education that you will wind up getting stuck in Iraq in front of a crowd of military men and women?

No. He wouldn’t have. Time and time and time again, he has shown himself willing to say and do whatever is necessary to gain popularity and votes. Witness his 36 years of maligning the military with scant evidence. He made the calculated decision in the early 1970s that he would profit significantly by promoting the idea that the U.S. military is full of sadistic individuals, even when he knew that it wasn’t true. It worked well for him then, it worked well for him during his presidential campaign, and that is why he continues this practice to this day. Somewhere down deep, he must know that the Vietnamese did not fare well after we left but that is not relevant because he has political and personal gains to achieve.

President Bush has not been perfect and at times, I have not supported his stance on things. But almost without exception, his message and beliefs are the same, regardless of his audience and how unpopular his convictions might be. It is for that reason that the claim that he is a whore and in the running for the worst president in history simply does not hold water.

I do agree with you that one must do some legwork to get to some semblance of the truth. I have no idea if it is possible to ever pin down absolute truth but surely Senator Kerry’s outright refusal to acknowledge and honor historical fact is not the way to go.

I try and solve the problem of arguments by not arguing about the subject at hand. That, prevents the yo yo effect, and besides there are plenty of people willing to fight the good fight with facts.

You guys kill me.

I have to make up the kill ratio somehow, in return for the numerous times you, Cass, and Grim have slayed me.

However, if Bush can do what he said in his last speech, instead of going down as the worst president in history he could very well go down as one of the greatest. No one is pulling for him more than me. I think if we are going to do this we need to start supporting our troops. Not sticking Support the troop bumper stickers on our SUVs. Bring back the draft. We as a people ned to stop SHOPPING to to show our support which was the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Our guys need so much and we as a people DO NOTHING NOTHING for them except send cookies. We all need to make some big sacrifices. If we aren't willing to do that.

I'm personally willing to sacrifice 5000 enemy lives for every one American hurt. Does that count? Ya never know.

Some people just have different reactions to the same situation. Some folks think it's time to turtle up and do fortress America, other folks disagree. Some folks believe in sacrifice and some kind of WWII national unity bit, others differ on the realities of such a solution/cause/system.

Which is why I don't debate the facts or even the subject anymore. It has already been decided, if not in stone, then in marble. What could be discovered, has been discovered. At least to me. The only thing new anymore is motivation. For every individual, they are motivated by different things. Different motivations but perhaps the same beliefs. People don't often talk about their motivations, but an indirect way to discover them is to look at their immediate reactions to stimuli and their general behavior. A couple of models whipped up just for that individual, and things become translucent, if not clear.

WOW...I just got finished reading all the comments. If someone lobbed a nasty comment at me I lobbed one back. I'd say that if your arguement degenerates to gradeing my spelling and grammer.....Then I guess you don't have too much to say. Actually some of what you all said was a rephrasing of what I wrote but fired back at me in self rightous indignation. The other half were based on the many opinions that people have. Who started it, Who has the better plan, Who cares the most for our best interests, Who are the bigger scumbags.You know it's funny but what I'm gonna say next I said before. These are a matter of opnion. As much as you want to believe that you have all the answers you dont. We are all just guessing. But you pretty much just got mad at someone. who feels are troops get no support and need much more. If I called you an alien, you of course wouldn't be mad because you know it's not true. But the minute I make some strong statements, which I stand by 100% that putting a "We support the troops" Bumper sticker on your car doesn't equal support, that sending cookies doesn't equal support,Humvees that blow up while the right ones can't get made fast enoughe doesn't equal support, Letting some men fightwhile others skip something that you all claim is oh so life and death with no talk of a draft does not equal support, No one discussed a single issue I brought up ,just let me know how stupid I was...No wonder you people don't get anywhere. I came here to try to understand...but apparently your anger at opposing views and guilt for shopping for your country and blind faith that AQ hate us for our freedoms. My spelling and grammer may suck but my critical thinking apparently is kicking your ass in this catagory. You want people to understand your views, to sway them to get things to go your way. People here may not have agreed with me but some people liked me enough to listen. But there is no need to convince people who turn into school yard bullys and wet their pants at the first sign of descention. So pretty much I tried to listen to you..and you were everything I thought right wing people would be. I'm sorry I expected more from you. I'm sorry I didn't want to believe the left wing retoric of the way you people are. I'm sorry I thought critical thinking could be on both sides.

Oh..Deana..Please spell and grammer check....Clense me of bad grammer please oh please oh please!!!

Roland, why are you still swinging with both fists?

Deana apologized to you.

And it is not a case of "letting" people fight when we have an all volunteer force. From our perspective you would like to force people to fight, whether they agree or not.

How fair is that? At least under the current system, no one is over there who didn't sign on the dotted line, well aware that this was a distinct possibiity. They may or may not like it but they certainly didn't have to join up and if they weren't aware that going to war wasn't in the list of possibilities, well, they really weren't paying their attention bill. It's not as if it was in the fine print.

As I said, discussions get heated. The only anger I'm hearing right now is from you, and people have discussed the issues you brought up. You just don't like the answers. I addressed the 'shopping for your country' and you gave no response. So that's one issue that was addressed.

I think you are letting your frustration get the better of you.

War and peace, the future of western civilization, these are large topics. When you discuss them you may occasionaly find someone has an opposing viewpoint. If you are not prepared to defend your ideas and have them strenuously challenged, you should keep them to yourself.

I have not come by my deeply held beliefs lightly. I have spent the last twenty years reading and paying close attention to world events. It is my opinion that the war in Iraq was entered into with noble intentions and must be won because the consequences for the world if we are defeated will be disastrous.

As I said, these views are deeply held and I am willing to defend them. I am not likely to be swayed by someone who does not have command of the facts or history, and who writes fairly incoherently. For this I will not apologize.

Roland is not looking for critical thinking, he is seeking uncritical acceptance. This is not that blog, here even the editor Cassandra gets challenged.

here even the editor Cassandra gets challenged.

Well, that is certainly true, though I am constantly being told (by people who are in the middle of telling me how full of sh*t I am on my own nickel, that I can't tolerate being told I am wrong) :p

The inherent conflict in this point of view never seems to leap out and strangle any of these folks. What they're really complaining about isn't that I 'can't stand' being told I'm wrong, but that I'm not convinced by their telling me I'm wrong. But that's my right - I don't have to find their arguments convincing, just as they don't have to find mine convincing. Welcome to the real world.

Of course, it hasn't quite dawned on Keith Olbermann that screaming "Help, Help I'm being repressed!" on MSNBC isn't terribly convincing either.

I think this may be one reason most of my posts have a satirical tone, even when the point is dead serious. Otherwise I'd go inssne.

Roland -

No one is asking you to be a perfect writer. You may have the best point in the world but you aren’t doing yourself any favors when you make no attempt to present your thoughts using proper grammar and sentence structure. Scrambled writing suggests scrambled thinking, even if that is not the case.

As for your claim that no one discussed a single issue you brought up, that is false. Multiple participants directly discussed various points you made. I specifically wrote about why I believe that your statements that President Bush is a "whore" and potentially one of the worst presidents in history are wrong.

And here is more discussion on another point you made. I am just as disgusted as you apparently are that more people from certain segments of our country do not serve in the military. I am not saying that a draft should never be considered. But at this time, I am not about to support the idea of making those who choose to serve work and have to depend on those who are doing so only because the law forces them. Many people I know who were drafted in our nation’s past served honorably. Many people drafted nowadays would serve honorably too. My fear is that given our current climate, endless numbers of people forced to serve would spend their time and energy focusing on how to get out of service and not on what they need to do to contribute to the mission, keep everyone as safe as possible, and get the war over with as soon as possible for the sake of everyone.

Roland, why are you still swinging with both fists?

I recommend palm heel strikes when angry, due to the fact that you can use rotational energy and hit your target without damaging your knuckles. Watch out for the walls though, they tend to create big holes when you hit them. It is like they purposefully put them there so as to get hit or something.

Or maybe Roland has something to do with what I said here.

look at their immediate reactions to stimuli and their general behavior-Ymar

If someone lobbed a nasty comment at me I lobbed one back.-Rol

That's why anti-war folks often can't stop wars, only increase wars in both number and loss of life. They get into this cycle of violence business and that's just a waste.

People aren't supposed to get even or even get mad, they're supposed to get ahead. At least Americans are, concerning warfare.

Actually some of what you all said was a rephrasing of what I wrote but fired back at me in self rightous indignation.

Warning, mirror dance; warning, objects in mirror may be closer than they appear.

We are all just guessing.

I agree, you and your folks are guessing.

But you pretty much just got mad at someone.

Both Cass and Deana seem pretty sane and reasonable in terms of their reactions to stimuli and environmental factors. They aren't mad.

No one discussed a single issue I brought up ,just let me know how stupid I was

What do you expect people to say, that they disagree with you and provide you reasons that you are wrong, in which you will then tell them that you are right and they are wrong? This isn't some narcissist game, you know, in which the more attention your views get, the more points you win.

but apparently your anger at opposing views and guilt

Projection and displacement. Or maybe just the former only.

My spelling and grammer may suck but my critical thinking apparently is kicking your ass in this catagory.

Spelling and grammar are small sacrifices to be given for the greater good.

You want people to understand your views, to sway them to get things to go your way.

Not particularly, no. I'm here to read and listen to Cass as she does her thing. And maybe Grim too.

If people started going my way, I would be scared. Folks shouldn't do that.

you were everything I thought right wing people would be

Always nice to be appreciated as a number and cog in the machine, thanks. (remember Jimbo's Rage against or of the Machine)

As I said, discussions get heated.

Last time one of my discussions got heated, William Hazen became Ranger Hazen. Don't want to see a repeat of that again.

you gave no response-Cass

it's sort of like an infinite progression of reflections between two mirrors, Cass. There's no real there there, or something like that.

that I can't tolerate being told I am wrong-Cass talking about Cassandra.

Hey. That is like saying Grim is easily excitable or that Jimbo is stale and shy.

I actually think I did make my points clear. But it all comes down to one thing. You think your "Not Guessing" and Have all the Facts" Ok..gang ok....Pile when your done running for imaginary President..Let me know when the real call comes. (Crickets Chirping) You made jokes about me riding the bus (That will fix them) However, although no need justify themselves to me. I'm probably taking more action by doing that than writing on this web site.If everyone rode the bus, they would be doing a lot more for their country. Looking for unconditional acceptence Pile?...Yes..yes..you're right..that's why I'm on a web site where I am entirely disagreed with. Pile, Many posts back you slammed me for something and I apologized and asked for a book on the subject to read so I could learn more. I think we were talking about Oil. You said nothing. Do you realize to help me understand why I might be wrong and you could be right. If you convince me..I go back and I tell two friends and they tell two friend and so on and so on and so on. But you don't care about helping people understand because liberals are beneath you and if you don't care about changing the hearts and minds of the opposition, how do you expect to have any effect on policy. Do you think your buddies on capital hill will thank you for squandering chances to convince people that their way can work.It seems to me you just want to argue and feel superior. When I said critical thinking...I pretty much question everyone. unfortunitly if information came from a right wing Leprecon you guys take it as fact, no questions asked. Pile, Get some Xanax and a bus pass. More importently get yourself a girlfriend/boyfriend/trannie-hooker. Because no one needs to get laid more than you.

LOL OMG WTF LOL OMG OMG LOL WTF LOL ROFL!!!

I did not slam you Roland. If you want to call it that, you slammed me for my position on ethanol. I explained my position and gave you several other fuel alternatives that I think make more sense than ethanol.

You then asked me for a book you could read for more information. On the internet.....you are sitting at a computer with access to the internet...the internet....which gives you access to an amount of information that is incomprehensible....a book? The internet even has information on those.

I did not respond because I was being nice.

Roland -

I too would love it if more people in this country drove more fuel-efficient cars, not only because it would reduce waste, but also because it would starve Saudi Arabia, Venezuela, and other troublesome countries of the income they use to foment trouble. I'm just not sure that you portraying yourself as more virtuous than others due to your decision to ride the bus is the best way to get others to adopt your way of life.

Also "questioning everyone" is not critical thinking. Critical thinking has more to do with the process of gathering information, analyzing it, examining evidence, and discussing it with others in order to form opinions. Regardless of whether opinions or claims are formed using critical thinking, they should be based on evidence. That is why the claim that people on this forum accept whatever a "right wing Leprecon [sic]" says with no questions asked is weak - it isn't backed up with evidence. And I’m not even going to bother asking you for the evidence on which you based your last demand of Pile. I already know that there isn't any.

I am finished with this discussion, Roland. I enjoy discussing things at length with people, particularly when there are divergent opinions. But it needs to be with those who, more often than not, say “I believe X and this is why.”

I have to say I agree.

What use is "critical thinking" if it is selective in nature? If the "critical thinker" constantly discards anything inconvenient to the preconceived thesis he has already decided upon?

Such as "none of you guys addressed any of the points I brought up". Deana and I both responded to that complaint and pointed out that we had both done so.

No response. Right over your head, Roland. No one claimed that writing on a web site was going to solve the world's problems - you are setting up a straw man so you can win the argument, but you're putting words in our mouths. What I actually said was that if you knew more about the people who come here and what they do, you wouldn't be making cheap shots like 'what are you doing?'.

The inference you were supposed to take away, since you seem to have missed it, is that many people are doing things in the real world to help the war effort Roland.

However, like Deana, I think I too am finished with this discussion. When you start insulting my friends with childish remarks like "you need to get laid" that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand, I think that's a sign that this has gotten out of hand. I tried to get people to apologize to you and it achieved nothing because you were unable to back down in return and accept their gesture.

You can't have a conversation if people are just going to harangue each other. This is my site and I don't choose to put up with this kind of nonsense. Either be civil and stay, or move along. I'm sorry, but there it is.

You made jokes about me riding the bus

Short bus. And me, not Pile.

If everyone rode the bus, they would be doing a lot more for their country.

Technically, isn't the bus something the country provides as a service to you?

I go back and I tell two friends and they tell two friend and so on and so on and so on.

The heck. You got some kind of brainwashed cult network where what you say goes?

I tried to get people to apologize to you

I apologize for taking it easy on Rol, Cass. I am very very sorry.

Either be civil and stay, or move along. I'm sorry, but there it is.

Fie fi foe dum, I see a foe being stomped on.