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August 29, 2008

First Reaction on Palin

Sorry - I'm too busy for anything other than a brief comment. My initial reaction to the Palin choice was mixed.

Primarily, it distresses me a bit to think she was chosen because she is female. I found myself, and I know no one here is going to want to hear this, oddly moved by watching the delegate count at the DNC the other day. Some time ago, Grim pointed out to me that many blacks have their hopes and dreams tied up in Barack Obama.

At the time, I thought it a bit amusing because as a woman, quite a few of my 'hopes and dreams' were tied up in watching Hillary Clinton - though I vehemently disagree with her on many issues - run a credible campaign against the juggernaut that is Barack Obama. I thought she was the best of the candidates the Democrats fielded, and I thought she deserved the nomination. Apparently this assessment was insufficiently widespread.

But in my mind, there was no question that she ran a good race and part of me - my heart - found it painful to see a woman lose to someone I will always view as less qualified. At the same time my Inner Rethug was pleased, as I believe Barack Obama will be easier to defeat.

As for Palin, I don't know much about her. As a general note, I keenly dislike seeing race and gender play the outsized role they have in this campaign: I don't see this as a step forward for either blacks or women.

On the otter heiny, I can't help reflecting that choosing a relatively inexperienced women was extremely shrewd of the McCain folks. To the extent the Obama folks denigrate her experience and cast aspersions on her ability to lead, they risk re-igniting the burning resentment of not just Hillary supporters, but many other women as well. I won't defend her mindlessly: she's got to prove herself to me. But when the Obama campaign starts right in on her "lack of experience", they risk looking not just disingenuous but patronizing and sexist to a group of people who are already inclined to view Obama that way.

And I think the backlash could well cost them the election.

Posted by Cassandra at August 29, 2008 01:38 PM

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Comments

Well, they also are in a bind about throwing "inexperience" bombs. She's not running for President. She's running for Vice President. The main job of the Vice President is to study how to be President if necessary. They don't have to make the big calls, but they are right there seeing and learning how it's done.

If the President can't afford 'on the job training,' that's really the main thing the VP does.

So if you throw bombs at Palin for being inexperienced, you hurt Obama more. He's running to be the guy making the calls. She's running to be the lady who gets briefed, observes, learns, studies. If we can't afford an inexperienced VP, how can we possibly afford an inexperienced President?

Posted by: Grim at August 29, 2008 02:06 PM

Oh, I agree with you there :p

I just thought the whole gender angle was interesting. I wasn't even a Hillary supporter and the Obama campaign completely alienated me with the way they treated her.

If I felt that way, how will undecided female voters react if the Obama campaign really goes after her? I just hope she's smart enough not to complain about it.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 29, 2008 02:14 PM

Palin is a GREAT choice and not just because she is a woman. She has a really good track record and reputation in public service. I wrote about her today. I've been rooting for her as VP for a long time. I'm ecstatic she was chosen!

Posted by: Kat at August 29, 2008 02:20 PM

Well, for what it's worth, I'm not a woman and nor am I a liberal, and I don't even like Sen. Clinton, and I was put off by it.

Posted by: Grim at August 29, 2008 02:22 PM

As I said, Kat, I'm willing to give her a chance but I don't think a man with that level of experience would have made the cut.

I am impressed by the qualitative aspects of her record though.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 29, 2008 02:23 PM

Yeah. I was encouraged by that, Grim, because you've always been a thoughtful sort and I also know you're not inclined to identity politics.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 29, 2008 02:24 PM

She's smart and tough. There aren't too many pantywaists that grow up in Alaska.

She's anti-corruption, and hardest on her own party members that have been corrupt in Alaska. I think she will run point for McCain (if elected) on creating more budget discipline among Republicans. And as VP, she would be President of the Senate.

As I read someone else mention on another blog, she is an American Westerner type Libertarian.

"If you don't like the way I cut my grass, get off my lawn".

I don't think she is going to take an s_ _ _ off of anybody, inside or outside the party. I think she will be the perfect foil for the Inside the Beltway mentality of Biden and Obama; meaning, Big Government will Solve all the Problems. It can't and it won't, and that's not democracy anyways.

Surfing around the Internets indicates that a lot of the "base" is fired up about this. Good for McCain.

Posted by: Don Brouhaha at August 29, 2008 02:25 PM

As I said, she was a shrewd choice. I hope she also proves to be a wise choice.

I'm open minded on the question.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 29, 2008 02:29 PM

Governor Palin, I think, represents multiple grand opportunities for Senator Biden to improve his already world-class level of double-foot-insertion.

Posted by: socialism_is_error at August 29, 2008 02:36 PM

As in, "Talk to me like I'm your father"? :p

Posted by: Cassandra at August 29, 2008 02:40 PM

heheh Ketchup with those Florsheim's Senator?

Posted by: bt_what-me-worry_hun at August 29, 2008 02:41 PM

I don't have time for much in the way of commentary either. All I have to say is OUT FREAKIN STANDING.

Posted by: HomefrontSix at August 29, 2008 02:45 PM

So, Pallin's like a female version of Dick Cheney?

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 29, 2008 02:46 PM

The question is whether it will backfire on McCain. He already has the pro-life, conservative women voters so with this move he's trying to win the Hillary voters who may be on the fence about Obama. The likelihood that he'll attract Hillary supporters because Palin's a woman is condescending to Hillary's supporters to say the least. They weren't supporting Hillary just because she was a woman, they backed Hillary because she stood with them on choice, gun control, Iraq, and because she was qualified to lead. I know because I was one of them.

McCain would've had a more of a chance of swaying some of the undecided if he had chosen a woman like Carly Fiorini. At least she would bring years of CEO experience to the table.

Biden has already debated against a woman during the primaries. A dozen times. He'll pass with flying colors.

Posted by: Ingrid at August 29, 2008 03:08 PM

*I* didn't say women would vote for her solely because she's female, Ingrid.

If you pay attention, what I said was that the Obama risks alienating them if they appear to be condescending. And I believe I'm fairly well qualified on that subject, being someone who was offended by the Obama campaign's treatment of Hillary even though I didn't support her.

The difference here is that while I wouldn't have voted for Hillary in any event, the Obama campaign 's behavior had ZERO chance to affect my vote. Female undecideds (which is who I was talking about, not Hillary supporters) on the other hand, might find that tips the scale for them if they're sitting on the fence.

And FWIW, he has already attracted Hillary supporters, even without Palin. This can't hurt. I rather doubt you speak for all Hillary supporters any more than I would ever claim to speak for all McCain supporters.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 29, 2008 03:15 PM

Cass, while I'm won't discount gender being a factor in her choice, I do think it goes deeper then that. From what I read, as a mayor and governor she was a fiscal conservative, backed tax cuts and reforms. She fought corruption against members of her own party, which impresses me a lot. We have far too many politicians who will go along to get along rather then stand up against waste fraud and corruption.

As far as placating the conservatives, she favors oil drilling, is pro-choice with a compelling story supporting that belief and generally supportive of winning in Iraq, and with a son headed there next month can not be attacked as a chicken hawk (how many time have we seen signs from the anti-war types saying Bush should send his kids to Iraq).

Other then her general lack of experience, she fits the image McCain likes to promote as a Maverick.

The real test for her (in the election) is how she will do in the debates against Biden. Again, from what I read she is very intelligent, a fierce competitor and won't back down or be intimidated ... as you suggest Biden better watch what he says.

Posted by: Frodo at August 29, 2008 03:19 PM

The likelihood that he'll attract Hillary supporters because Palin's a woman is condescending to Hillary's supporters to say the least.

No, it isn't.

McCain would've had a more of a chance of swaying some of the undecided if he had chosen a woman like Carly Fiorini. At least she would bring years of CEO experience to the table.

She got ambushed by her own board when she thought everything was fine. That's CEO experience, yes, but of the sort that Kings have when a coup de tat takes them out of power and they go into exile.

I rather doubt you speak for all Hillary supporters any more than I would ever claim to speak for all McCain supporters.

We're sort of like Sunnis who don't particularly like Americans being on our land and telling us what to do, but we really really hate AQ being here as well.

We'll support McCain or not depending on his actions.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 29, 2008 03:22 PM

I won't vote for Obama and I won't vote for McCain.

I will vote for Palin.

Posted by: Max at August 29, 2008 03:25 PM

As I said, Kat, I'm willing to give her a chance but I don't think a man with that level of experience would have made the cut.

I will say that her level of experience was perfectly fine when it was Tim Kaine being bandied about as Obama's lead Veep candidate. He has the same executive experience as she and they both have more than Barack Obama. No one seemed to have a big problem with Kaine. In fact, the media loved the guy.

I'm not all that worried about her. All she's done in her time in Alaskan politics has been to kick the appropriate amount of corrupt a** and do a very good job.

Posted by: Jimmie at August 29, 2008 03:28 PM

Just need to correct the post by Frodo -- Palin is emphatically not pro-choice, she is firmly anti-choice in every way. That is why they think the "base" will love her.

Personally, I think it's insulting to women to assume that we will have some Pavolvian response just because they place any woman on the ticket. And not even the most qualified woman (how much Kay Bailey Hutchinson be feeling right about now?) This is a person that would never have been chosen were she a man.

No thanks, you just convinced this Hillary supporter once and for all who I will vote for.

Posted by: cg at August 29, 2008 03:30 PM

I never thought Kaine was a frontrunner for whatever reason. I think he was mainly on the list b/c of the delegate thing. But that's just my assessment.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 29, 2008 03:31 PM

Frodo,

I think you nailed the fact that Palin brings disaffected conservatives back to the ticket at the prospect of her conservative bona fides and her track record, thus far, of adherence to traditional conservative principles. Hey wait one... this sounds like a Democrat talkin head doesn't it? =8^0

The fact that her, ahhh what was it someone said here the other day? Oh yeah, her plumbing such as it is, is only icing on the cake. or something like that...

It sho is gowanna be interesting to see how the Dems line up on her.

Tougher in Alaska? Of that I have little doubt! Heheheheh.

Posted by: bt_careful-with-that-axe-Eugene_hun at August 29, 2008 03:32 PM

Not sure who "you" is, cg.

Again, let me clarify: I have not said female voters would automatically vote for Palin.

Don't know if someone else did, but I didn't.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 29, 2008 03:33 PM

My friend in Alaska just sent me a long email about her. I thought this part says a lot about her toughness, and generosity:

Her water broke at a Western Governors Conference where she had just presented a speech on opening ANWR. She called her State Trooper over and instructed him to get her on the first plane home and went to the hotel to clean up. Then she gathered her 2 staff members traveling with her, got to the airport, no labor yet, got on the plane and flew home. Labor started about 2 hours out of Anchorage. Palin alerted the pilot who called to have a Providence Medivac Helicopter waiting when the plane landed at 1:30 AM, the plane landed, stayed out on the runway, Palin was off loaded, Todd was in the helicopter, they raced to Valley Hospital and Trig was born at 6 AM. We all woke up with the news of the new Palin addition and the dramtic story. Then she came back to work 3 days later.

On Monday August 18, she had a baby shower for Trig at Romano's, at the corner of C and Fireweed. All presents went to military young families.

Posted by: MathMom at August 29, 2008 03:34 PM

Salamander has been hoping for Palin for a long time. Read the comments - one of the comments ("Tom") posted something he wrote for National Review.

As for Kay Bailey, she didn't want the VP slot. She's got her eye on the Governor's Mansion (or what's left of it after the arson fire while it was being restored...) in 2010.mi

Posted by: Miss Ladybug at August 29, 2008 03:43 PM

1)Palin has more EXECUTIVE experience than ANY of the other players--Obama, Hillary, McCain, Biden. True, she doesn't have much, but it's more than any of them have.

2)Fiorina would have been a mistake. Much political capital would have been made of the amount of money she was paid at HP, and while leaving HP, while having been judged--fairly or not--to have failed in the job. Also, the story about the pictures of the HP founders being taken down and replaced with her own would have been very damning.

Posted by: david foster at August 29, 2008 03:45 PM

I was actually afraid McCain would choose Kay Bailey Hutchinson. She's my senator, and I always vote for her, but she would have no national appeal, and she would have been the fourth U.S. Senator on the two tickets -- ick. Give me a governor any day. Sure, I wish she were a governor with more years, but I'm right there with her on all her policies.

Carla Fiorina was an interesting idea, but she has the same problem Romney would have had: huge numbers of Americans are mindlessly anti-corporate-bigwig.

We just tried to go on McCain's website to make a celebratory donation. The site is overwhelmed; come back later. I bet Obama wishes his site had had that problem after he announced his selection of (yawn) Biden.

Posted by: Texan99 at August 29, 2008 03:49 PM

Can anyone tell me how much experience Dan Quayle had? I'm not being facetious, I just don't really know.

I think Palin is a smart choice. I'm certain she was not chosen just because she's a woman. I think it is a FACTOR, but her strength is in her small-government anti-corruption conservatism. She's an individualist, which appeals greatly to me.

I think it's fine that a woman and a black person are in this race (only one of which is actually qualified, in my opinion, for the office for which she's running). However it may smack of tokenism, it finally gets it out of the way. It can never again be said that Americans are "not ready" for a black president, a woman president, or whatever. Done with. Period.

Posted by: April at August 29, 2008 04:08 PM

Quayle was in his early 40's and was two years into his second term as U.S. Senator from Indiana when he joined the Bush Sr. ticket in 1988. Before that, he had served as a U.S. Congressman from Indiana, and before that, he'd practiced law a bit.

Posted by: Texan99 at August 29, 2008 05:01 PM

Carla Fiorina was an interesting idea, but she has the same problem Romney would have had: huge numbers of Americans are mindlessly anti-corporate-bigwig.

One of the benefits of Democrat propaganda and politics.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 29, 2008 05:04 PM

No thanks, you just convinced this Hillary supporter once and for all who I will vote for.

Nobody but you can help it that you think Pallin was against the choice to give birth to her Down Syndrome son.

We got nothing to do with that.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 29, 2008 05:06 PM

Do a little web-searching for her. She's great! I'd have no problem seeing her in the White House, even in the Big Seat. I think she could handle it.

Can you imagine her and Hillary and Pelosi together?

Posted by: ZZMike at August 29, 2008 05:35 PM

Sorry, to clarify: when I said "you", I was addressing the McCain campaign...they are the ones who convinced me. I didn't mean to be unclear.

I 100% support Palin's choice to do whatever she felt best for her. For me, it's between a woman, her God, and her doctor.

However, she doesn't have a position that respects any choice but the one she would make. That is anti-choice.

Posted by: cg at August 29, 2008 05:44 PM

Thanks for the clarification :)

Posted by: Cassandra at August 29, 2008 05:47 PM

FWIW, I hope some pro-choice voters will not make that the single issue disqualifier. I'm pro-choice, though not adamantly so.

But in all reality, the President and VP have nothing to do with abortion rights, really, outside of nominating justices. The Pres. can't just strike down Roe v. Wade - a decision on the Constitutionality of a law, even if it springs from some emanation of a penumbra, is not the same as vetoing a bill. Really, the most he could ever do was refuse to enforce Roe, and he'd be dead in the water politically if he did so.

So to me it's ironic that we even waste time talking about this during presidential elections. Also, even if Roe were reversed tomorrow, all that means is that the States would then be free to enact their own laws.

Honestly, I have a hard time imagining too many states at this point completely eradicating abortion. They may limit it in some way, and I don't have a problem with that b/c to me, that's democracy in action. But they are unlikely to make all abortions illegal.

When you look at the issue in that light, a lot of the hand waving starts to look kind of overdone.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 29, 2008 05:55 PM

In an interview with Alaska Business Monthly shortly after she took office in 2007, Palin was asked about the upcoming surge. She said she hadn't thought about it. "I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq," ..."I heard on the news about the new deployments, and while I support our president, Condoleezza Rice and the administration, I want to know that we have an exit plan in place; I want assurances that we are doing all we can to keep our troops safe."

She hadn't really focused much on it? Great. She has little experience, and seemingly little interest. I'd say that puts her in good company with the current Commander-in Chief. Morons

Posted by: Bella at August 29, 2008 06:24 PM

Palin to me is a GREAT choice.



she is not as inexperienced as obama is, she has held several offices. she has had some tough battles, and she is not proving something for feminism, or for women.



she is a person doing a tough job and exactly the kind of woman that i would vote for. the leftists spend their time trying to fluff up qualities that dont matter (male or female, black or white, etc), all to polarize and force a dialectic. meanwhile, those who are leading by merit (palin), are not looked at or focus on those things, how they do their job is more important and carries them to the kind of people looking at merit over other lesser qualities that mean less (but in honesty they always mean somthing, never nothing).


she was picked for her qualities, one of them is being a woman. given what i have read, and not just now, she is in by merit, and thats the first reason she is chosen. Idont think that mccain is there because no one notices his sex, they do. however, the majority of people not into marxian glass or gender dialectics, dont make that their only deciding thing.



if it is a toss up between two people of merit, her being a woman in THIS race would decide it for me, precisely because the other side makes it infinitely important over all other merits.



with the left it tends to be the quality is denied from existence, or exploited to advantage sans other things.Its seldom merit first, additional qualities later.



I am not all that thrilled at the selections we get, but at least more than many of my contemporaries i have real reasons as to why i am making my choices, and none of them are from party lines, pc thought, or catch phrases.



mostly its lesser of two evils if you want to be real about it.


I will say it again, Palin is a great choice, I think she will do a great job if she gets the chance. she has made it on her own, and done well, she isnt a post turtle.

Posted by: Artfldgr at August 29, 2008 06:28 PM

Doesn't bother me a bit.

He son is on his way over there. And she went to Landstuhl to visit our wounded guys -- long before anyone was looking at her for this job.

As a Marine wife of 28 years, that speaks volumes to me.

I don't expect State governors to be exquisitely tuned into things over which they have absolutely no control. The same criticism was leveled against Mitt Romney and as a military wife I thought that was equally stupid. The guy was doing his job. She was doing hers. Somehow I think a state governor is just a tad more busy than your average Joe or Jane Sixpack :p

Posted by: Cassandra at August 29, 2008 06:29 PM

Bella, thanks for coming and enlightening us with your incredible insights. I wait all day for someone to make such an insightful remark. Your analysis is incisive and powerful.

"Morons."

Come back real soon!!

Posted by: Don Brouhaha at August 29, 2008 06:33 PM

"Somehow I think a state governor is just a tad more busy than your average Joe or Jane Sixpack"
How 'bout that Milady. Imagine, a state governor focused on doing their job... Outrageous! Outrageous I say!

That was a swing and a miss Bella.

If in July of 2009 Vice President Palin does not have a grasp of the issues of national importance, ya'll come on back now, ya he'ah. =8^}

Posted by: bt_careful-with-that-axe-Eugene_hun at August 29, 2008 06:41 PM

Yes, well I wasn't even going to bring up Obama's flaccid understanding of what is going on in Iraq :p

Posted by: Cassandra at August 29, 2008 06:50 PM

I had the same reaction to the selection of Obama at the DNC that Cassandra did. It was incredibly touching to watch the African-Americans in the crowd tearing up and cheering at the same time. I imagine how I would have felt if Hillary Clinton had been the nominee and think I can thus get a pretty good idea of how much that moment meant to them.

I like the idea of Palin (I'm fascinated by un-obvious choices) but I'm not going to know enough about her to make a substantive judgment until I see more of her. And I plan to try very hard not to like her just because she's a woman. (Shouldn't be too hard, actually. There are a number of women I don't like.)

However, having wandered over to HuffPo to see what they're saying, I can report I'm already seeing some articles that are making my misogyny warning circuits light-up. And I think Cassandra is right: it's a re-ignition. If I hadn't been so disgusted with the virulence of the attacks on Hillary I'd probably be less sensitive to some of the comments on Palin.

Posted by: Elise at August 29, 2008 06:58 PM

"I'm already seeing some articles that are making my misogyny warning circuits light-up."
The big-tent, progressive party of the people!?

<sarc>Shocking! This old conservative thought the GOP was firmly in control of misogyny... A veritable monopoly, second only to an incestuous bid'ness relationship with BIG OIL and corporate greed... Shocking I say. </sarc>

Posted by: bt_careful-with-that-axe-Eugene_hun at August 29, 2008 07:05 PM

Oh.. and being a father of two young adult ladies, I have but one thing to say, HOT DANG OUTSTANDING!

Simply because from everything I've been able to find on this lady, she trumps the Dem ticket single handed.

Short Story: Not only are race but also gender issues are being shoved to the side in the time of their young lives. Outstanding!

Posted by: bt_careful-with-that-axe-Eugene_hun at August 29, 2008 07:13 PM

I'd much rather she be focused on the responsibilities of HER JOB than those of someone else's job. Like Cass said, she has no control over the events in Iraq. What she does have control over are the things that affect her constituents at the time - the residents of the state of Alaska. And that is where her focus was.

Faulting her for not paying attention to the details surrounding the war in Iraq would be like faulting me for not paying attention to the details of my neighbor's job. It's not my responsibility. Nor was Iraq hers. It is NOW and I'll be dollars to donuts that she's gonna learn real quick which is a hell of a lot more than Obama can say.

Palin is more Libertarian than anything else - something that will help balance out McCain's RINO-ness. She's a STRONG fiscal conservative who has no qualms about tossing her Commissioner of Public Safety out because he DIDN'T fire her BIL. There's the antithesis of cronyism right there.

As for her inexperience, I'd rather have the VP in OJT rather than the President, especially when the option for President (Obama) hasn't shown himself to be the quickest learner...

Posted by: HomefrontSix at August 29, 2008 07:15 PM

He doesn't *have* to be a quick learner, HF6 -- he'll magically attract all the best and the brightest minds to DC, not unlike the Pied Piper.

Or Kokopeli...

Posted by: BillT at August 29, 2008 07:39 PM

She's a STRONG fiscal conservative who has no qualms about tossing her Commissioner of Public Safety out because he DIDN'T fire her BIL. There's the antithesis of cronyism right there.

Her BIL was involved in a divorce and child custody battle with her sister when he was fired. That's why she's under investigation by the State legislature for abusing the power of her office.

Selecting a VP is the single most important decision a candidate has to make before he becomes president yet McCain had ONE personal meeting with her (in February) and ONE phone call on Sunday to invite her to Sedona on Thursday to make offer. That paints a deeply troubling picture of McCain's decision making process. It also tells me that this was not a personal decision (as he told us it was) but a strategic one.

Posted by: Ingrid at August 29, 2008 07:57 PM

Palin's ex-brother-in-law was not fired and he had his suspension reduced from 10 days to 5. From what I've read of what he was accused of, he got off light.

What the controversy and investigation is about is that Palin removed her brother's-in-law boss and offered him another position, which he refused. He wasn't fired, he refused a transfer.

Posted by: Donna B. at August 29, 2008 09:36 PM

Wow, are you kidding me? Palin as a stupendous choice for VP? The VP really doesn't make any big decisions, so what do we care about her lack of experience? Wow, you are not the brightest bulbs. The VP takes over for the President if he/she should die, and NEWS FLASH: McCain is 72 years old. The ave. age of the American man is 73 it's likely he could keel over in office if he were to win, and PTA mom Palin would be running our country? I hope not. You are regurgitating the same old rhetoric that the Republican party and conservative talking heads spew out shamelessly; Obama is an incredibly intelligent man with a Law degree from Harvard. He has served in the IL Senate and our US Senate for a total of 7 years and has real experience on legislation regarding healthcare, budgets and foreign policy. Wake up and smell the coffee. McCain/Palin is a losing ticket and is all wrong for America.

Posted by: danaflower at August 29, 2008 10:12 PM

Well, before you say too much about people not being very bright, allow me to point out that some of us can read an actuarial table. The "average age for a man" may be 73; but that is because of people who die from all causes at younger ages. The life expectancy for a man who reaches 72 is 12.01 years.

So, if McCain is "average," he can expect to live to about 84.

Posted by: Grim at August 29, 2008 10:16 PM

Bright bulb indeed... Thanks for your input. But I think I'll go with the Governor over the community organizer any day.

Posted by: bt_careful-with-that-axe-Eugene_hun at August 29, 2008 10:17 PM

By the way, you can also calculate the death probability from that chart, for each of the years he'd be President. A probability of 1.0 is a certainty. The probability of him dying in the next year is 0.032978, or just slightly more than 3%. This remains true for each of the four years he'd be President.

Of course, that's an average. The President of the United States will have the finest health care in the world, including the fullest range of preventative medicine.

Posted by: Grim at August 29, 2008 10:20 PM

Pardon me: By "this remains true," I don't mean that the percentage stays exactly the same. I mean it stays around three percent, rising to about four percent in the last year of his first term. That's still a 95%+ chance of him surviving that year, however.

Posted by: Grim at August 29, 2008 10:22 PM

"He has served in the IL Senate and our US Senate for a total of 7 years and has real experience on legislation regarding healthcare, budgets and foreign policy."

Prove it.

Posted by: DL Sly at August 29, 2008 10:22 PM

Oh but DL Sly, he has vision and leadership qualities. They are just not reflected in his voting record... or legislative sponsorship... or academic papers... or adherence to principles... or standing by his associates through thick and thin... or...

Posted by: bt_careful-with-that-axe-Eugene_hun at August 29, 2008 10:26 PM

Having lived in Alaska for several years and having remained an Alaska resident with voting rights that I not only used but used in an informed fashion, I'm well aware of the controversy surrounding Palin and the Commissioner. If you dig a little deeper, you'll find that she and her office are cooperating completely.

Her former BIL violated gaming laws, tasered his ELEVEN YEAR OLD SON, and threatened to kill his former FIL. He not only should have been fired, he should have had his ass thrown in jail. Yet he was merely suspended and then had his suspension reduced from 10 days to 5. WTF? His superiors should also have been thrown in jail for allowing such a person to remain on the payroll and in possession of a firearm.

And McCain didn't ask her to marry him, sight unseen like some Russian mail order bride. He chose the person he thinks (and I happen to agree) is the best person to not only help him win the election but also to run the country. Keep in mind, you can't run the country until you win the election. Obviously, McCain and his advisers believe she is the best choice.

And, like the rest of the brilliant minds in here, I can read an actuarial table and I know that the AVERAGE life span of the American male is 72 but that means that some men live until they are 80+. Like my father. And some die before the reach 50. Like my uncle.

I get it. Thanks.

Posted by: HomefrontSix at August 29, 2008 10:34 PM

That's why she's under investigation by the State legislature for abusing the power of her office.

That Hillary Clinton reflex to dig for dirt shows up once again. Obama was just better at it, it seems.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 29, 2008 10:39 PM

However, she doesn't have a position that respects any choice but the one she would make. That is anti-choice.

Thanks for the clarification :)

Indeed.

When you look at the issue in that light, a lot of the hand waving starts to look kind of overdone.

Somebody has to be up at the top making people do things they don't want to do. If it ain't Roe vs Wade, then it has to be Obama. And if it isn't Obama, then Pallin and McCain certainly ain't good whatchamacallits. Substitutes.

She has little experience, and seemingly little interest. I'd say that puts her in good company with the current Commander-in Chief. Morons

A moron is someone who thinks politicians are supposed to be cosmopolitan Michael Moore and Obama like omniscient godlings that know about everything and have their corrupt hands in all the pots. Pallin is just a human being and even though you are regretful that she isn't up to your level of minimum worship requirements, people like me are just fine with human flaws such as lacking omniscience and omnipotency.

I don't expect State governors to be exquisitely tuned into things over which they have absolutely no control.

Anti war state governors and legislatives make all kinds of stink about the War. Why didn't Pallin do so to prove her street cred in the vast theater called Leftist politics?

She is a moron, just like Bush, for not emulating Leftist strategies of social harmony and justice, Cass, and you know it is twue.

He doesn't *have* to be a quick learner, HF6 -- he'll magically attract all the best and the brightest minds to DC, not unlike the Pied Piper.

Or Kokopeli...

Or the vacuum created by the first shockwave of a nuke.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 29, 2008 10:48 PM

Should push abut shove, I would take Governor Palin's executive experience over BO's *cough* legislative *cough* experience *cough*, hands down. Wait, since he's the product of the Chicago political machinery, make that, hands up.

Posted by: bt_careful-with-that-axe-Eugene_hun at August 29, 2008 11:13 PM

I've been following this off and on all day. Posted comments here and there at my surprise at her nomination. There are things that concern me about her personal story - not so much because of her character or accomplishments which appear quite good - I reacted to the news of her recent child surprised and concerned, the corruption probe thing is just something I'm tired of hearing about when it comes to Republicans and Democrats both...but by the end of the day my biggest concern aren't really those issues, but the fact that McCain only met her once prior to this week (or late last week).

A running mate who can get along with the President to the point that they don't undo whatever the president has achieved if something should occur to the President while in office and they are called to take up the position.

I just felt he was reacting more the Democratic choices then the needs of his desired administration and working environment. I mean, it's a partnership in many ways. I don't understand why he would make this choice without really knowing her. It shows an odd sense of judgement and he did not appear to be all that comfortable standing next to her. It feels inauthentic.

Posted by: David at August 30, 2008 12:10 AM

Apologies, in formatting I deleted something....

A running mate needs to be someone who can get along with the President to the point that they don't undo whatever the president has achieved if something should occur to the President while in office and they are called to take up the position.

Posted by: David at August 30, 2008 12:13 AM

I've now seen twice in comments that McCain only met with Palin once before selecting her but haven't run across that info in my (admittedly haphazard) wanderings about the net. It certainly would help to explain how the McCain camp managed to keep the VP selection from leaking. Can someone - David, maybe - point me to a story about the selection process? Thanks.

Posted by: Elise at August 30, 2008 12:50 AM

I don't think McCain chose her because she's a woman; I think McCain chose a VP who is "allowed" to be highly pro-life! (which means you have to be a woman, and a woman who "lost" something by living to your standards)

Posted by: Foxfier at August 30, 2008 01:00 AM

Look, she's a tough lady. I'm not surprised that the Alaska State Legislature wants to investigate her. She did a pretty good job of cleaning the "old boys" and their backroom deals out. So this is sort of penny ante payback.

She knows the energy industry--or at least part of it. She's shown that she knows how to cut a deal that helps her state. They've got a natural gas pipeline on the way now that they didn't have before.

She's honest. She appears to be smart. That's too things that are difficult to say about Joe Biden.

I'll go with the McCain Palin ticket. She's going to get some OJT if they win.

Posted by: Mike Myers at August 30, 2008 01:52 AM

Elise: here you go: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/29/1307122.aspx

"From NBC's Mark Murray and NBC/NJ's Adam Aigner-Treworgy
The McCain camp has just released a tick-tock of how the Palin pick came to be. And according to it, McCain had met her just one time prior to yesterday."

Posted by: Jeffrey at August 30, 2008 08:38 AM

The ethics investigation is something that had to be done (anytime you hire/fire someone with whom you have a personal connection, it creates the appearance of impropriety. Whether or not anything untoward happened is what the investigation is designed to uncover.)

But the suggestion that she can't act against someone who (if this turns out to be true) acted improperly is frankly silly.


If the guy really made threats, that is grounds for firing and if someone resisted firing him (and it turns out he did these things) he did so improperly. Troopers aren't supposed to threaten the lives of family members, let alone public officials.

Period.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 30, 2008 09:21 AM

REASON HAS NO PLACE IN THIS CAMPAIGN!

I can tell that I'm going to have to keep my eye on you young lady...

Posted by: J. Edgar Hubris at August 30, 2008 09:34 AM

"Vote against Palin -- she's too tough on wife-beaters." It'll make a great bumper sticker.

Posted by: Texan99 at August 30, 2008 09:57 AM

Her former BIL violated gaming laws, tasered his ELEVEN YEAR OLD SON, and threatened to kill his former FIL. He not only should have been fired, he should have had his ass thrown in jail. Yet he was merely suspended and then had his suspension reduced from 10 days to 5. WTF? His superiors should also have been thrown in jail for allowing such a person to remain on the payroll and in possession of a firearm.

Surprisingly though, NONE of the alleged actions you cite were reported to the authorities when Palin claims they happened in 2005 (and prior to her being elected). The first time they surfaced was (not surprisingly during the custody hearing between her sister and BIL. You can read all about what Alaskans call TropperGate here. You should so you can discuss with facts.

Cassandra asks the right question: Based on her CV, would McCain have picked her for VPOTUS slot if she were a man? And if he was hell bent to select a woman running mate why didn't he choose one with better qualifications? Answer: This was a political decision not a governance decision.

The evangelical right is giddy with the promise of a stalwart right to lifer, who believes in creationism. [Think Mike Huckabee in a skirt.] The hell with what she thinks about foreign policy. The rest of the country? Ah, not so much.

Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 10:17 AM

Well I went to the MSNBC article linked by Jeffery. A big so what ensued...

Public figures, like governors, mayors and even county commissioners are, well public. As such their history, their actions, their positions on issues great and small within the realm of their office are open for public review.

Ones does not have to attend the neighborhood Fight the Man rally every week to know a public person. Their record is the relevant issue...

BTW, and please correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't that the party line when Slick William was caught chasing skirt and playing with his cigar? Only public and policy issues were relevant to the discussion then. Right?

One last observation. The comments at MSNBC are all so similar (DNC talking points I suspect) that the next time I hear a progressive accuse a conservative of hive think, I may laugh myself into next week.

"The evangelical right is giddy with the promise of a stalwart right to lifer, who believes in creationism. [Think Mike Huckabee in a skirt.]
I would laugh at the thought of either issue swaying my vote or the vote of most of the conservatives I know, but the though of Huckabee in a skirt was pretty dirty Ingrid. That killed any laugh dead in its tracks.

While trying to get that image out of my head, I have to imagine that McCain and his staff vetted Palin on the important issues that matter to McCain. The issues that will determine my selections are government size and regulation, spending, taxes, the economy and what can be done to stimulate the economy, foreign policy, national security, views on the separation of powers, etc. In other words, all the issues that will prevent me from casting a vote for O/B.

So can I assume from your comments that you will not be voting for McCain/Palin? =8^}

Posted by: bt_careful-with-that-axe-Eugene_hun at August 30, 2008 10:50 AM

The issues that will determine my selections are government size and regulation, spending, taxes, the economy and what can be done to stimulate the economy, foreign policy, national security, views on the separation of powers, etc.

You zeroed in on the important point, bt. Besides admitting that she hasn't had time to think about the war in Iraq, do you know where she stands on any of the hot button issues? How about immigration? Social Security? Israel? Gays? Contraception??? I'm anxious (very) to learn more about any of her positions outside of her views on polar bears. [You do know she is suing the US gov't over its position on polar bears, yes?]

Here's is one Alaskan's perspective, and a photo of downtown Wasilla that's worth a thousand words [and which should make Grim smile]

Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 11:23 AM

Rats. Bad link. Try this instead.

Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 11:31 AM

Yes, I saw that image too, Ingrid. Amazing.

Regarding same sex marriage, she's opposed. She's also opposed granting benefits to gay partnerships. She's pro-life, and supports the teaching of "Intelligent Design" in schools. She's in favor of oil drilling in ANWR (which I guess is a necessity if you want to run for any political office in Alaska). She supports the commercial hunting lobby which would mean an end to wildlife protection for wolves in the rest of the U.S. Polar bears we already know about. Did you see the picture of her sitting on a grizzly pelt with the head attached in her office? Not much for wildlife protections, I'm guessing. Considering that she has 5 kids, I don't think she's big on contraception either. Probably thinks teach abstinence is enough.

Posted by: jeffrey at August 30, 2008 11:37 AM

Considering that she has 5 kids, I don't think she's big on contraception either.

Ah. Another non-bigoted comment from the progressive point of view: anyone who has a large family must be against birth control (alternative lifestyles being best reserved for those who share the correct progressive outlook, doncha know) :p

Charming.

Posted by: Ooooh, snap!!!! at August 30, 2008 11:45 AM

Even worse, we hear she opposes same sex marriage for polar bears.

Posted by: Oh, The Humanity!!!! at August 30, 2008 11:46 AM

I realize that everyone (including me) is caught up in the heat of the final 60 days to a vital election, and so we all say things in the heat of the moment that we may or may not really mean.

But what I'm about to say, I mean from the bottom of my heart. And I'm sure that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Now that Sarah Palin is in the race, I'm dedicating all of my free time to helping the Obama campaign, and my wife and I will be donating the maximum allowed. It's inconceivable to me that the future of our nation could be in the hands of Sarah Palin. Imagining the depth of harm that she could bring is a place that I just don't want to go.

Perhaps some of you may feel that way about Barack Obama. If so, I never really appreciated your fear until now. Now, I'm genuinely afraid for the future of our nation if McCain/Palin wins, and I'll be much more aggressive about helping bring about an Obama victory then I would have been before the Palin announcement.

From that perspective, perhaps I should be thanking John McCain for making this insane choice. Perhaps it will light an even bigger fire under Obama/Biden supporters to ensure a Democrat victory in November.

Posted by: Jeffrey at August 30, 2008 11:59 AM

LOL! Cass, I don't think I'm pushing the envelope by saying that a woman who's given birth to 5 children isn't big on birth control. That's kind of a no-brainer.

Posted by: Jeffrey at August 30, 2008 12:03 PM

One of those links says she's a gun toting hang em high conservative; which, along with the rest of her background, has got commenter Jeffrey in a dither--and energized to vote and work for Obama.

Well good. People ought to work for what they believe in. But I like having a chance to vote for a red meat conservative. McCain was a little shifty there for me. I'll support McCain/Palin--and Jeffrey can pray (if Jeffrey prays) or at least hope that McCain stays alive for his full term as President.

Posted by: Mike Myers at August 30, 2008 12:10 PM

The commercial hunting lobby... Oh no, Big Hunting.

The wolves are doomed! Why look at what has happened to the polar bears, not to mention that grizzly bear.

And, and, gasp, she likes children. I'm telling you we're screwed. Someone who hunts, likes children, and worst of all is a proponent of gasoline. Jeffrey, y'all need a new shtick, no nevermind I take that back this one is really funny.

Posted by: Allen at August 30, 2008 12:11 PM

I am so tired of seeing these lies such as the list Jeffrey has given about Palin and creationism and anti-gay rights:

Just read this: http://hotair.com/archives/2008/08/29/heart-ache-palin-wants-creationism-taught-in-public-schools/

Drat. I can't find the link, but there was a quote from Palin when she was running for governor where she said she opposes gay marriage but is open to legislating safeguard for certain gay rights and for creating legal domestic partnerships.

Posted by: FbL at August 30, 2008 12:11 PM

Thanks for the link Ingrid.

I'll look it over this evening or when I can no longer continue execute tasks on the honeydew list. For now, break time is over and I do not want to rush the process or aggravate Walkin' Boss. =8^}

Posted by: bt_careful-with-that-axe-Eugene_hun at August 30, 2008 12:13 PM

LOL! Cass, I don't think I'm pushing the envelope by saying that a woman who's given birth to 5 children isn't big on birth control. That's kind of a no-brainer.

Jeffrey, this is a blind spot many liberals have--the idea that there is no difference between personal values and public values. She personally doesn't use birth control. That is absolutely no indicator of whether she thinks others should. Good grief!

Posted by: FbL at August 30, 2008 12:14 PM

Thanks Jeffrey. Reads like the makings of a Russ Limburgh wet dream :~>

Curious which of McCain's immigration positions she follows. She also supported Pat (gulp) Buchanan in his 1996 bid for President so that suggests her views on Israel may not be square with Lieberman's. There goes Florida!

BTW, she's on the record that she is opposed to contraception. That should be the cherry on GWB's noctunal bliss.

Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 12:16 PM

"One of those links says she's a gun toting hang em high conservative;",
Which may explain why I'm so enamored with the lady. =8^}

Posted by: bt_hang-em-high_hun at August 30, 2008 12:16 PM

Ingrid:

It is not unheard of for Wikipedia to contain slanted presentation, but one might include their take on the so-called Alaska Troopergate as perhaps a little more neutral than the anecdotal views of a single Alaskan.

Posted by: socialism_is_error at August 30, 2008 12:27 PM

Good point on Israel, Ingrid. And thanks for confirming her stand against contraception. Perhaps as her positions on these issues get more play, it'll not only compel other Obama supporters to kick up their involvement in this election (like its done for me) but will scare off some of McCain's more moderate supporters as well.

How funny would it be if his "maverick" pick of Palin becomes his un-doing?

Posted by: Jeffrey at August 30, 2008 12:28 PM

Oh. My. God. She's opposed to contraception? Maybe she's one of those, you know, Roman Catholics.

Yes, I am becoming more frightened by the moment, a woman who hunts, and might be Catholic.

Posted by: Allen at August 30, 2008 12:42 PM

Time on-line cites Governor Palin as being pro-contraception.

Does Ingrid have an actual source for her "confirmation"?

Posted by: socialism_is_error at August 30, 2008 12:57 PM

Hold me, Mommy, and leave the light on.

I'm skeered...the boogeywoman's coming!!

Posted by: Jeffrey at August 30, 2008 12:57 PM

You mean this quote from Time online:

She is Christian and pro-life, but also a supporter of birth control: she's a member of Feminists For Life (FFL), an anti-abortion, pro-contraception organization"

I can see how Ingrid could be confused because it never really says that she supports birth control.

Oh wait...it does...

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 30, 2008 12:59 PM

Jeffrey is right. How dare you presume to correct him?

The truth here is not nearly so important as the undeniable fact that Jeffrey feels she is anti-contraception and therefore it must be so.

Posted by: Knut, the Adorably Psychotic Polar Bear at August 30, 2008 01:04 PM

Feelings...woe, woe, woe, Feelings...

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 30, 2008 01:07 PM

Ah, I see that Villainous Company has now joined the ranks of Townhall blogs where the comments section is just another collection of troll imitations and impersonations. Very nice, Cass.

Posted by: Jeffrey at August 30, 2008 01:09 PM

Thanks for the link, Jeffrey. The story seems sort of retro to me - it reminds me of stories I've heard about JFK and LBJ, more like an arranged marriage. As opposed to Clinton and Gore which always looked like an eHarmony commercial.

I also took a look at the link Ingrid put up with the info on TrooperGate. Having already read some of the right-leaning views of this dustup, it's interesting to see the same story from the other side. As is often the case, I imagine the truth is somewhere in the middle. I have to admit this issue fascinates me because it’s NOT NEW. The McCain team must have known about it and they picked her anyhow. Unless you buy the argument that McCain and his entire team are idiots, you just have to ask why.

As an aside, someone might suggest to Mudflats that if he plans to claim the charges against Wooten are fantasies spun in the service of a custody battle, he should remove the part of his narrative that reads (emphasis mine):

Wooten ... used a taser (on the test setting, he reminds us) on his 11-year old stepson, who supposedly had asked to see what it felt like.

Polar bears. Palin's objection to listing polar bears under the Endangered Species Act is based on polar bears not being endangered and on her belief (which is not confined to her) that the polar bear listing will be used to stop greenhouse gas emissions. That is, lawsuits will be launched that say, “Polar bears are endangered: you can’t build that factory, you must raise CAFE standards, you can’t burn coal, and so on.”

She is a hunter but I’d be careful making assumptions about her stance toward wildlife protection based on that fact. Hard as it is for Whole Foods Democrats to believe, many hunters are very committed to wildlife protection. Contrary to popular belief, they are in fact smart enough to figure out that if wildlife is not protected they, their children, and their grandchildren will not be able to hunt. It would be interesting to get a good argument going about whether hunters or a wide-open immigration policy has done more to decimate wildlife in this country.

I’d also be a little careful about assuming Palin opposes birth control. (I’m actually still waiting for someone to show me something that proves McCain opposes birth control, as I keep hearing he does.) As far as I can determine, the Assemblies of God (Palin’s church according to Wikipedia) does not oppose birth control. Some people just like children.

After reading some of what’s being written about Palin, I think she’s a huge gamble. There’s simply no way to know how she’ll handle herself over the next two months. If she does well, great; if not, big problem.

However, her selection has put the Obama camp in some interesting boxes. Despite the misstep in their first reaction to her, I think they’re smart enough to avoid many of these traps. However their supporters are already falling - heck, leaping - into them and it will be interesting to see if Obama surrogates do also - either with or without the encouragement of Obama:

If Palin was a man, no one would have considered her for a second! I hear faint, faint echoes of Ferraro.

Look at the stupid little town she comes from - and she hunts! I hear not so faint echoes of bitter people clinging to their guns.

No way she has enough experience to be President! What’s that I hear? All Obama has is a speech? And she’s running for Vice President. Or are you suggesting that, hey, you never know, McCain might drop dead sometime soon?

TrooperGate! If the media is going to pursue TrooperGate, why are Rezko and CAC considered ugly, slimy smears?

As for Palin’s positions that upset so many on the left - she opposes abortion, likes oil, supports hunting and fishing - she’s a Republican. They’re supposed to be different from Democrats.

Posted by: Elise at August 30, 2008 01:12 PM

Well, Jeffrey, when you come here simply to smear and if not outright lie, support false information like Sarah Palin does not support birth control, all that's left is mockery...

Hey, let's talk about Barack's shadowy associations with Ayers!! Cause that $hit really does worry me.

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 30, 2008 01:17 PM

Ah, I see that Villainous Company has now joined the ranks of Townhall blogs where the comments section is just another collection of troll imitations and impersonations. Very nice, Cass.

Lighten up, Francis :p

If we lose the ability to laugh, one wonders what is left? Oh yeah.

Insults.

Posted by: Knut, the Adorably Psychotic Polar Bear at August 30, 2008 01:22 PM

...and the temptation is very strong.

Posted by: socialism_is_error at August 30, 2008 01:25 PM

My husband and I feel the same way, Jeffrey. So too my 78 year mother who see McCain's selection for what it is: pandering. As she said to me yesterday, that fellow will be lucky if he gets 18 of Hillary's 18 million voters. Love that woman.

On the positive side, the fact that McCain was willing to gamble with his pick tells me the campaign is running scared, and maybe the rumblings of landslide aren't far from the truth. None of us know. This could be his ace in the hole or his undoing but passing over Romney or even Pawlenty suggests that he ain't sitting pretty in the swing states (or with his Republican base for that matter.)

Secondly, with one quick phonecall to Alaska, he knocked his main argument against Obama off the table. He must have learned just as Hillary did in the primaries that he couldn't make the "not ready to lead" label stick to Obama. McCain's supporters will argue that this bodes well for Palin. Possible. But I doubt we'll see another ad from Team McCain claiming "experience matters." Advantage: Obama.

P.S. I'll look for the link on Palin's position re: contraception. If I'm wrong, it will be the good news.


Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 01:39 PM

...just another collection of troll imitations and impersonations.

It's not nice to imitate and impersonate trolls. You hurt their whoa, whoa, whoa feelings.

Posted by: BillT at August 30, 2008 01:46 PM

On the positive side, the fact that McCain was willing to gamble with his pick tells me the campaign is running scared...

Was it a gamble, or was it a very calculated choice?

Politics involves risk-taking, and very few politicians will take an *unacceptable* risk.

Posted by: BillT at August 30, 2008 01:51 PM

"...comments section is just another collection of troll imitations and impersonations."

How refreshing! A troll that actually admits to being one. Kudos to you, Jeffrey and a big *Huzzah* for openly admitting it.

Posted by: DL Sly at August 30, 2008 02:28 PM

McCain raised $5.5 million yesterday -- some of it from my husband and me. It seems not everyone hates or fears small-town, gun-totin', pro-life women with strong religious convictions.

Hey! I just remembered: I'm a small-town, pro-life, gun-totin' woman with strong religious convictions.

As for Palin's scary creationist leanings: I believe in evolutionary biology. If you put me in charge of the School Board, I wouldn't be instituting a creationism curriculum. On the other hand, if biology is taught competently, students should learn enough to make their own informed choice in favor of evolution, or to find their own way to reconcile the idea of a supernatural universal order with the evidence of natural selection (or any other natural law).

Anyway, the creationism bug-a-bear is the LEAST of my concerns about the public school system.

Posted by: Texan99 at August 30, 2008 02:36 PM

Stop picking on me!!!

I'm going to tell Barry and then you'll be in really big trouble. Barry will give you the LOOK.
That's the same look he'll give al Qaeda to make them stop and Russia to make them stop and China to make them stop. We won't even need a military 'cause we'll have the LOOK.

Nobody wants the look, lady. It's the stinkeye of foreign policy.
The only thing more feared than the LOOK is the TALKING TO.

You don't even want to go there. Trust me.

Posted by: Jeffrey at August 30, 2008 02:41 PM

My wife has THE LOOK.

Reminiscent of Myrna Loy's. A-h-h-h-h.

Little Barry's is bush league.

Posted by: socialism_is_error at August 30, 2008 02:46 PM

Further to the contraception brouhaha:

There are numerous links to articles/commentary that she is against use of contraception because she is a member of the Feminists for Life organization. Since I am not either, I googled the
Feminists for Life site. Three words: Proceed with caution.

The FAQs page states that "Preconception issues including abstinence and contraception are outside of our mission. Some FFL members and supporters support the use of non-abortifacient contraception while others oppose contraception for a variety of reasons. FFL is concerned that certain forms of contraception have had adverse health effects on women. "

That was helpful. Not.

Since I can't confirm whether she does or she doesn't, I'll gladly offer my apologies to all who were offended by my assumption that because the Governor is a proud member of Feminists for Life she does not favor non-abortifacient contraception. Whatever that may be.

Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 02:50 PM

WHO DARES CAST ASPERSIONS UPON MY GOODLY DISCIPLE, JEFFREY!!!

I WILL SMITE YOU WITH ONE EYE TIED BEHIND MY BACK!!

.................What, dear?
Take out the dog? I thought you said the girls were going to.....

Fine, be right in.

sigh..

Anyway....I'll smite you later.

Posted by: Barack Obama at August 30, 2008 03:16 PM

"Non-abortifacient contraception" = The Pill.

I'd add condoms, but blurb on the vending machine says they're for the prevention of disease. I probably need to get some, because flu season's coming soon...

Posted by: BillT at August 30, 2008 03:22 PM

Abortifacient contraception works by destroying or dislodging a fertilized egg. I believe IUDs work that way, and for that reason some women prefer not to use them. The morning-after pill qualifies too, of course.

Other contraception either prevents ovulation (the Pill) or prevents fertilization (condoms, diaphragms). Those who oppose this kind of contraception typically are not concerned with the abortion issue but instead with more general convictions about not interfering with the natural order, or with divorcing sex from procreation in a way that is considered to undermine a person's proper relationship with God or society.

Posted by: Texan99 at August 30, 2008 03:26 PM

Since Governor Palin's views on contraception remain a question mark (for now), let's take a look at what Senator McCain has to say about whether contraceptives should be covered by insurance.

Like fish in a barrel.
Join me in a game of poker, Senator?

Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 03:29 PM

Why should contraceptives be covered by insurance in the first place -- just because?

Posted by: BillT at August 30, 2008 03:49 PM

Actually, the non-abortifacient contraception idea is a bit of a mess. Barrier methods (spermicides including the sponge, condoms, diaphragms) are always non. What we usually think of as abortions are always abortifacient obviously.

Everything else is up for grabs. IUDs and the Pill work by preventing ovulation and/or preventing the sperm from being able to reach or enter the egg. That's non-abortifacient. However, it is postulated - but not established - that if ovulation does occur and the egg is fertilized, those methods may prevent the fertilized egg from implanting. Is that abortifacient? Well, that depends: are you going to say life begins at fertilization or at implantation?

Interestingly, even some of the morning after pills may or may not affect implantation so it's not totally clear even they are abortifacient.

I would imagine that there are gradations within the "only non-abortifacient" camp: everything from strict interpretationists who approve only of barrier methods to the fast and loose crowd that embraces everything up to (and possibly including) some form of the morning after pill.

Interestingly I found some claims that the rhythm method may be abortifacient: it is theorized that during the period when ovulation is less likely implantation is also less likely. So if ovulation and conception do occur, the fertilized egg may not be able to survive.

I find the fact that Palin belongs to Feminists For Life very encouraging: she belongs to an organization that has the word “feminist” in its name. And she’s a Republican.

Posted by: Elise at August 30, 2008 03:50 PM

It's harder to shoot fish in a barrel than most people think.

First I would imagine most conservatives are opposed to most rules telling private companies what to do. I have a bone to pick with them myself on their "let people buy insurance across state lines and to heck with state regulation of insurance companies". Nonetheless, there is a coherent policy position.

Second, the idea that most insurance companies cover ED drugs but not birth control is out of date:

Fact Check

Posted by: Elise at August 30, 2008 03:59 PM

Well, somebody is shooting fish in a barrel but it really isn't Ingrid.

I give you credit, Elise...I just don't have the patience.

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 30, 2008 04:08 PM

Bill, can you give me a good reason why Viagra is covered by insurance? Other than the fact that... Um Nevermind:~>

Elise, as the Fact Check link states insurance coverage of contraceptives is not 100%, which is why Carly Fiorini, McCain's top advisor, has been debating the issue in favor of coverage all summer long.

Regardless. The fact that McCain didn't know whether he was for or agin it, much less how he voted on the issue (he voted against coverage more than once) is deeply troubling. Where is Lieberman when you need him!

Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 04:23 PM

Posted by: Ooooh, snap!!!! at August 30, 2008 11:45 AM

Is it so surprising that inspite of all the claims of Leftist Democrat utopian fake liberals, the sexism, misogyny, prejudice, and crude bigotry and racism just keep outflowing from their polices and supporters?

They say it is from Republicans: that if you get rid of Republicans and their policies, good will happen and bad will disappear.

Nice con job, don't you think, Cass? Perhaps the greatest con in history. And history is pretty long and full of con artists.

It's inconceivable to me that the future of our nation could be in the hands of Sarah Palin. Imagining the depth of harm that she could bring is a place that I just don't want to go.

A woman is so threatening, Cass. You womyn are terrible to behold!!! Like vet66 said about veterans being of all flocks and having a different god, it's all good. Until it isn't.

That's kind of a no-brainer.

Don't worry Cass, he's just trying to make you irrational; which he thinks is the normal state for conservative women, so he's surprised when you don't act according to his script.

Drat. I can't find the link, but there was a quote from Palin when she was running for governor where she said she opposes gay marriage but is open to legislating safeguard for certain gay rights and for creating legal domestic partnerships.

Now, now, FBl, only conservatives lie, misrepresent, and character assassinate. You don't want to end up like Kurtz, do you? Do you?

She personally doesn't use birth control. That is absolutely no indicator of whether she thinks others should. Good grief!

Actually, Jeffrey means that Pallin got all her kids by accident, according to what nature says. This strips the free will from Pallin since it refuses to acknowledge that Pallin wanted 5 kids, period. Some people just want a big family. But that's unnatural and a political position, so Jeffrey must kill it and stomp all over it. See, reasonable, right.

Very nice, Cass.

Don't ever stop Cass, cause then life would be too boring without all your theatric super characters running around. I love those wovely fuzzy woozily crazy sketch characters you create, Cass!! I'm a big fan, yanno.

Oh, did Jeffrey insult you or something? Don't worry, he won't exist in another second or two anyways. Or not.

As for Palin’s positions that upset so many on the left - she opposes abortion, likes oil, supports hunting and fishing - she’s a Republican. They’re supposed to be different from Democrats.

There's no difference between Republicans and Democrats. All are corrupt and all provide entertainenment value to nihilists like Ozzie who enjoy seeing heroes taken down a notch or 10.

Hey, let's talk about Barack's shadowy associations with Ayers!! Cause that $hit really does worry me.

I'm sure it worries Jeffrey over at Grim's Hall as well.

Or not.

If we lose the ability to laugh, one wonders what is left? Oh yeah.

The Left's what left... don't tell me you forgot that?

How refreshing! A troll that actually admits to being one. Kudos to you, Jeffrey and a big *Huzzah* for openly admitting it.

Ahh, Sly, what would we do without you? Teleport to another world, probably, yes, but this one is still full of character, populated by people like... Jeffrey. We can't top that!

On the other hand, if biology is taught competently, students should learn enough to make their own informed choice in favor of evolution, or to find their own way to reconcile the idea of a supernatural universal order with the evidence of natural selection (or any other natural law).

Woah, you ascribe to a universal set of ethics that says any consistent obedience to the laws of the universe will produce consistently the same conclusions over ethics and other beliefs? No wonder you need to carry a gun!! That kind of stuff is verbotten these days. As bad as child molestation, really.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 04:28 PM

I realize that everyone (including me) is caught up in the heat of the final 60 days to a vital election, and so we all say things in the heat of the moment that we may or may not really mean.


But what I'm about to say, I mean from the bottom of my heart. And I'm sure that I'm not the only one who feels this way. Now that Sarah Palin is in the race, I'm dedicating all of my free time to helping the Obama campaign, and my wife and I will be donating the maximum allowed. It's inconceivable to me that the future of our nation could be in the hands of Sarah Palin. Imagining the depth of harm that she could bring is a place that I just don't want to go.


Perhaps some of you may feel that way about Barack Obama. If so, I never really appreciated your fear until now. Now, I'm genuinely afraid for the future of our nation if McCain/Palin wins, and I'll be much more aggressive about helping bring about an Obama victory then I would have been before the Palin announcement.


From that perspective, perhaps I should be thanking John McCain for making this insane choice. Perhaps it will light an even bigger fire under Obama/Biden supporters to ensure a Democrat victory in November.


Posted by: Jeffrey at August 30, 2008 11:59 AM

Ah, I see that Villainous Company has now joined the ranks of Townhall blogs where the comments section is just another collection of troll imitations and impersonations. Very nice, Cass.

Posted by: Jeffrey at August 30, 2008 01:09 PM

My bad, J. I had seriously thought that that was really you saying you were afraid of Pallin. I'm so ashamed that I could be taken in by a troll imitation and impersonation like that. Please accept my most humble apologies.

*****

Btw, people are welcome to try to impersonate me, if they wish. Assuming, 1, they can spell my name correctly and 2, they can emulate my unique tone on torture, violence, and debate subjects.

Who wants to give it a try? Cass? Sly? Bill?

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 04:36 PM

My bad, Fbl, I quoted the wrong part of your post.

I am so tired of seeing these lies such as the list Jeffrey has given about Palin and creationism and anti-gay rights:

That was what I was really replying to.

*****

Btw, who ever was impersonating Jeffrey using the "get my point" email line is really horrible. That person needs an instructor from the school of conscienceless (or is that conscientious?) propaganda in order to teach him or her how to truly impersonate.

Jeffrey would never have written something like that, that was logically internally consistent.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 04:40 PM

It used to be, conservatives were very cautious about calling people liars, even when debating the Iraq War in 2002-4.

Very cautious, and even more cautious because of how freely the Left were using the Bush lied pre-programmed talking points.

But now, we all know the truth, don't we? We all know that the reality is so full of lies, even if we made accusations of deception for years on end, it wouldn't completely do the Democrat position justice. The threat is not that we will go too far and become like our Democrat brethren in terms of calling the truth a 'lie' simply because it is politically expedient; the danger is that we will refuse to do so, and thus let them have control of the battlefield of men's minds. Women's minds too, although why anyone would want control of that space, I have no idea...

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 04:43 PM

Bill, can you give me a good reason why Viagra is covered by insurance?

Nope, I sure can't, Ingrid.

I can't give you a good reason why doctors should be allowed to prescribe it for prison inmates, either.

Posted by: BillT at August 30, 2008 04:46 PM

"Jeffrey would never have written something like that, that was logically internally consistent"

There's always one critic in the crowd.
My artistic spirit is crushed. Crushed, I tell you.

Posted by: Jeffrey at August 30, 2008 04:47 PM

"Ahh, Sly, what would we do without you?"

Well, for one, bthun would finally get to wear the big pointy hat in the corner (you know, the one that holds a full quart of beer) and Semper Fi Wife would go through guacamole and salsa withdrawals. Not to mention the severe decline in Monty Python and Mel Brooks YouTube links.

And we wouldn't want that now, would we?
Hmmmmm???

I thought not.
heh
*sort*
*sicker*

0>;~}

Posted by: DL Sly at August 30, 2008 04:52 PM

Who wants to give it a try? Cass? Sly? Bill?

Right. I'd be up all night, typing by the light from my laptop screen.

Oh, wait -- I *am* typing by the light from my laptop screen...

Posted by: BillT at August 30, 2008 04:53 PM

"Semper Fi Wife would go through guacamole and salsa withdrawals"

True dat, Holmes and it won't be pretty.

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 30, 2008 04:53 PM

"Who wants to give it a try? Cass? Sly? Bill?"

It hurts me here (pointing to my heart) that you didn't invite me to give that a try...even though I don't have two hours to devote to it.

Y-m-a-r-s-a-k-a-r.

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 30, 2008 04:56 PM

Jeffrey,

Take a shower. It will help, especially if you wash your hair first. :)

"Those who wash their hair first are the artistic type. Daydreaming is your hobby but you can achieve what most other people cannot. Dedication is lacking but you will work tirelessly towards goals which are to your liking. Money is not important to you. Friends are but only intellectuals and fellow artistic types. You make the best lover as you are most willing to explore and please your partner. Talent is your main strength. Your best partner in life will be those who chose chest."

From the Shower Quiz, just a few short days ago.

You're welcome.

Posted by: Don Brouhaha at August 30, 2008 04:56 PM

Rove had some good advice for McCain on Face the Nation recently. Oh wait.

"I think [Obama's] going to make an intensely political choice, not a governing choice," Rove said. "He's going to view this through the prism of a candidate, not through the prism of president; that is to say, he's going to pick somebody that he thinks will on the margin help him in a state like Indiana or Missouri or Virginia. He's not going to be thinking big and broad about the responsibilities of president.

"With all due respect again to Governor Kaine, he's been a governor for three years, he's been able but undistinguished," Rove said. "I don't think people could really name a big, important thing that he's done. He was mayor of the 105th largest city in America."

Oops...

Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 04:57 PM

Karl Rove, you wag.

It's part of his diabolical plan to get you to underestimate his intellect, Ingrid...

Posted by: BillT at August 30, 2008 05:02 PM

It hurts me here (pointing to my heart) that you didn't invite me to give that a try...even though I don't have two hours to devote to it.

I was scared of Cass making fun of me if I tried to include all the company of Villains. As you well know, Cass intimidates me!

I don't want to mention the kind of firepower and goonery Cass can unleash. Suffice it to say that they are legion. I quiver in my soles every day when I dare to express objections here to Cass.

I can't give you a good reason why doctors should be allowed to prescribe it for prison inmates, either.

Gives them experience when they go free and they need to pick up women to assault later on.

Society would be a very cruel place if we didn't provide for the basic human needs of our own prisoners, after all.

From the Shower Quiz, just a few short days ago.

Good job impersonating Cass's Day number 1 persona: the Every Day is a Quiz Day Persona.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 05:03 PM

It's part of his diabolical plan to get you to underestimate his intellect, Ingrid...

Hey, wasn't it part of that Gramsian Marx thing that if you gave any support or justification to your enemy's position, you provide a way for social pressure to be relieved and thus the revolution to be slowed down?

Only by never refusing to compromise with the arch devils and villains like Rove, can the Left ever remain pure of heart and of intent; it is only by that criteria that they become fit to govern and rule humanity to the last woman, man, child, and sexualized polar bear commies.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 05:05 PM

""Who wants to give it a try? Cass? Sly? Bill?"

It hurts me here (pointing to my heart) that you didn't invite me to give that a try...even though I don't have two hours to devote to it.

Y-m-a-r-s-a-k-a-r."

There. Fixed that for ya. When *being* Ymarsakar, (heh, passed that test with all middle fingers tied behind my back.) one must be bold with the quotes. They're called html tags for emphasis. Try it sometime, you might like it....

heh

*running before I get "tagged" myself*

*swooooosh*
Ha! Missed me!!
neener neener neener
0>;~}

Posted by: Snarkammando at August 30, 2008 05:08 PM

Btw, Rove already knows somebody is going to kill Obama. Either his minions or Obama's loyalists. This means Rove has a particular interest in vetting the VP choice of Obama.

Rove would never, ever, try to cap McCain, however. Not with Pallin as his VP. Rove saw what Dick Cheney could do to people and I assure you, Rove ain't going to be messing with McCain, ever, with that kind of bodyguard.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 05:09 PM

Strange thread opening up re insurance covering contraception and Viagra. I can't think of any good reason for anything but market forces to control what insurance covers. But then, in general, I have a hard time understanding how so many people have reached the conclusion that the government has the obligation to supply them with either medical care or medical insurance, unless they are disabled. (OK, I make exceptions for the most impoverished among us, or to those whose health collapsed so completely and so early in life that they never had a chance to get insured and are now uninsurable. They should be in a small minority.) Should the government feed and house all of us, too? Isn't that as much of a basic human right as medical care?

I always thought that one of the reasons I had to have a job was to pay for my own food, housing, and other irreducible necessities, and those of my dependents if I produce any. For all but a tiny fraction of Americans, the most impoverished, it really is possible to buy your own high-deductible catastrophic health coverage for a reasonable monthly premium (much less than most people's car payments), and to set aside savings to cover the deductible. It just means you have to budget for the premiums and the savings before you move into a nicer place, take vacations, buy new clothes, cars, computers, and TVs, etc.

I'm so disappointed to see election after election apparently turn on who promises the most "free" medical care. It doesn't grow on trees.

Posted by: Texan99 at August 30, 2008 05:14 PM

It just means you have to budget for the premiums and the savings before you move into a nicer place, take vacations, buy new clothes, cars, computers, and TVs, etc.

What! I have to make sacrifices? No way, hosay. Not when I can get other people to pay my way.

Going on the sugar train, yes indeedy.

I'm so disappointed to see election after election apparently turn on who promises the most "free" medical care. It doesn't grow on trees.

Neither does bribe money, but it still gets passed around the Democrat connection circle, nonetheless.

Buying votes work. Just go back to ancient Rome when the Senate refused to pay for the retirement of people in the legion, thus leaving it up to the Generals to pay for widows and death bennies and farms retirement plans. Loyalty goes to whomever is dishing out the money. Age old custom there.

Course, America is supposed to be about other things than money, capitalism, and materialism, but the only people who really believe that are Republicans or conservatives.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 05:20 PM

"I always thought that one of the reasons I had to have a job was to pay for my own food, housing, and other irreducible necessities, and those of my dependents if I produce any."

Alright, Missy. That'll be enough of that! You are speaking the language of Logic and Common Sense to the Obamanation! If you're not careful, you'll awaken Sister Bag O'Metaphors, and then you'll be *stuk* the corner with Semper Fi Wife while she's going through her guacamole-induced DT's.

Posted by: Snarkammando at August 30, 2008 05:22 PM

I like the corner. It's quiet. It's non threatenging. I don't have to think. I just have to be. I have the audacity to hope that I will get out of the corner and that, once again, I can have guacamole.
I now know what an Obama voter feels like.

I think I will pray to the greatness that is Obama that I can haz guacamole.

Clearly, I have no other choice. Barry is my destiny.

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 30, 2008 05:38 PM

Dear Ingrid,
Please continue to comment. It is great fun to watch Elise swat you down like a punch drunk house fly.

Talk about your community service. Seriously. Talk about it.

Cheers,
Semper Fi Wife

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 30, 2008 05:45 PM

It may be quiet for you. Here's a hint: those *inner voices* of yours? Are really quite loud. I had to actually use my pointy beer glass as a hat to cover my ears. Although, in retrospect, I should have finished drinking the beer first.....
But, hey, I hear beer is good for the hair. Especially for those of us of the *artistic* bent.

Posted by: DL Sly at August 30, 2008 05:48 PM

This whole "anti-contraception" thing led me to snidely think of one thing:

I can't do it, but think: 2nd amendment, guns, and dead hands.

It does have quite the "ewwwww" factor.

Posted by: Allen at August 30, 2008 05:49 PM

Are you sure you're not confusing my inner voices with your Rice Krispies?
'Cause I understand that your Rice Krispies are a bit like Michelle Obama.

Loud and demanding.

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 30, 2008 05:54 PM

Ymarsakar writes,

Btw, Rove already knows somebody is going to kill Obama. Either his minions or Obama's loyalists. This means Rove has a particular interest in vetting the VP choice of Obama.

Rove would never, ever, try to cap McCain, however. Not with Pallin as his VP. Rove saw what Dick Cheney could do to people and I assure you, Rove ain't going to be messing with McCain, ever, with that kind of bodyguard.

Holy crap, Ymaarsakar, please say us you're joking (even if no one is laughing). I'm no fan of Rove's but to suggest what you're suggesting (or even jest about it) is deeply disturbing. As are you. God have mercy on your twisted mind, and yours.

Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 06:01 PM

Please note the second paragraph in my last comment should be italiacized to indicate they are part of Ymarsakar's earlier comment, and not my words!

Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 06:06 PM

Well, given the high infusion of cuss words and *colorful language*, I'd be willing to bet a wad the size of crab cakes in Carolina that they were yours. Especially since, yanno, I don't cuss.
0>;~|

Posted by: DL Sly at August 30, 2008 06:06 PM

Ingrid, I call shape-shifting: the issue of whether 100% of insurance plans cover birth control is different from the issue of whether insurance companies cover Viagra but not birth control. (Actually, 86% covering BC is pretty good especially considering the holes in other insurance coverage like adequate care for mental health issues.)

I actually thought McCain's answer was pretty straightforward - he didn't remember what was probably to him a fairly minor issue. The votes mentioned by Fact Check took place in 2003 and 2005 which was a while back. As for not knowing what his position is on it now, I'd want to study it more myself if asked that question given the volatile nature of gender relations in this election; given that the questioner started out telling him he voted against coverage of birth control before switching to telling him he voted against "forcing" coverage of birth control; and especially if the questioner started out by wrapping her question in the ED versus BC issue (which we don’t know because we don’t hear the original question).

Okay, enough calm patience. Now I'm going to release my inner virago (heh, heh).

For technical reasons - husband watching Yankee game in same room - I didn't watch the video before I replied earlier. That video is horrendous:

Why is it titled “McCain Squirms to Explain Not Knowing his Vote on Abortion”?

The anchor frames this as McCain voting against an amendment to require insurance companies to cover BC just as they cover Viagra. Since according to Fact Check 40% of plans cover Viagra is she saying McCain should have voted to reduce the 86% coverage of BC?

Couldn't the anchor just let us watch McCain and decide for ourselves how “riveting” the video is, how much McCain squirms and squints and tries to “will himself out of his own body”? Silly me, of course she couldn’t. Since we lack her fine journalistic instincts, we might not come to the right decision without her poisoning the well, er, providing guidance.

Even setting aside the issue of how many plans cover BC versus ED, Fiorina’s statement made no sense. What "choice" was Fiorina talking about? The choice between avoiding pregnancy by using BC and avoiding pregnancy by keeping ED meds away from your sexual partner?

A candidate who has been around for a while and has actually voted "Yea" or "Nay" rather than "Present" on a wide range of issues might have a harder time remembering how he voted on all of them than a candidate whose entire career has been devoted to avoiding a paper trail as assiduously as possible.

And, switching topics, now you think Karl Rove is a font of wisdom? If so, you might want to check out some of the reaction to his comments before you start emulating him.

Whew! Thank you for letting me get that off my chest. We now return to our regularly scheduled rationality.

Posted by: Elise at August 30, 2008 06:08 PM

Ingrid,
Expect the FBI or the Secret Service to be on your doorstep in the very near future...

You're toast....

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 30, 2008 06:09 PM

"We now return to our regularly scheduled rationality."

You can make me go.
*picks up tin cup and begins rattling it on legs of corner stool*
Hell no...We won't go.....Hell no.....We won't go.....
*motions to Semper Fi Wife*
C'mon, you gotta join in. I'll make guacamole.....
0>;~}

Posted by: Snarkammando at August 30, 2008 06:23 PM

Oooo, guacamole, or rather Hot Guacamole. I just got my NM green chile delivery, Hatch, natch.

2 avocados.
3 garlic cloves boiled and smashed.
3 roasted, peeled, and pureed green chiles.
1 tomato finely diced.
Dash of cumin
1 tsp lemon juice.
Mix it up.

Chiles roasting on an open fire, Jack frost nipping... at something.

Cheers

Posted by: Allen at August 30, 2008 06:55 PM

Semper fi wife, FWIW, I was quoting the inflammatory comment Ymarsakar made at 5:09 pm. If you scroll up you can read it for yourself. I trust after you do, you will agree that if anyone should be in hiding it is he.

Next time, do try to follow along.

Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 07:10 PM

Ingrid darling..
I HAVE been following along. Ymar made a joke which will be forgiven by Karl Rove...
you? Not so much..
I hear that Gitmo is quite nice this time of year.
Do send us a postcard.
Ciao, bella.
Semper Fi Wife

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 30, 2008 07:40 PM

The "punch drunk house fly" was lost on entry and has not improved its position.

Speaking of which, Semper Fi lady, I think it only fair that you provide the recipe for said punch to go with Allen's guacamole.

After all, with Elise and Ymar pelting the fly with alternating snark and rationality, I do believe you all have achieved major party status.

And it in no way resembles the Democrats.

Posted by: socialism_is_error at August 30, 2008 07:51 PM

Ingrid, it's called tone deaf and playing to a stereotype.

Us 'wingers are that way.

Try this one. I'm headed up to my 2nd, 3rd, whatever, house in the Sierras. In the morning I'm going to slide on down and have breakfast in Bakersfield. I think they might have forks.

Posted by: Allen at August 30, 2008 08:31 PM

"Expect the FBI or the Secret Service to be on your doorstep in the very near future..."
Staking out the Blog Princess, code name Rational Operator, and I hear there is a food fight in progress so I hotfoot it over here and Heyzuz, Merry and Josephus! Viagra!? Government controlled health care? Pointy hats! - Some Hun fellow filed a report on a stolen pointy hat! and BEER!

It's looking like I'm going to have to run a covert op on the lot of ya!

Wait! The dispatcher is saying that Keyser Söze is in charge of covert ops for BO/JB... Great, just great. I suppose I'd better get my resume out and see if the BO campaign needs access to any FBI files. I hope that damned Wookie is not still in cahoots with Hillary.

Allen, for that Hot Guacamole recipe, you're in the federal protection program. Good to go.

Posted by: J. Edgar Hubris at August 30, 2008 09:29 PM

Thanks, Allen. I'm taking notes.

You're a hoot, semper fi wife...despite your oddly regressive behavior. Chin up, little girl:~)

Posted by: Ingrid at August 30, 2008 10:05 PM

I'm no fan of Rove's but to suggest what you're suggesting (or even jest about it) is deeply disturbing.

Oh puhleez, obviously you haven't been around black people and their political opinions in Cynthia McKinney's former domain.

This kind of stuff is light compared to the real opinions held by folks.

That kind of stuff is hilarious, once you stop taking it seriously. But even if you take it seriously, which a person should at least once, that still doesn't mean it is "deeply disturbing". The reason why it deeply disturbs you is because you can't imagine certain things. That is a great handicap in politics.

As are you.

Hey, there's a third criteria now! Now you have to be disturbed to properly emulate Ymarsakar. Man, the standards just keep getting higher and higher these days. Soon, we won't even be able to be ourselves: the standards and requirements will be so high.

You're toast....

The FBI doesn't have authority to hunt toast under the Patriot Act. It is out of their jurisdiction.

Hell no...We won't go.....Hell no.....We won't go.....

Hell's minions just got +1 now.

I was quoting the inflammatory comment Ymarsakar made at 5:09 pm.

If Ingrid thought that was inflammory, you guys might to want to start wondering how she would react if she had read one of my real inflammotry comments about torture, GitMo, and what not.

Everybody deserves to have his or her own internal mental theatre, after all.

After all, with Elise and Ymar pelting the fly with alternating snark and rationality

My rationality bank account went bankrupt. I got to do some work to get it back into the black.

'Cause I understand that your Rice Krispies are a bit like Michelle Obama.

At least there is only one Michelle Obama and not a bowl full of em.

I think I will pray to the greatness that is Obama that I can haz guacamole.

Do what ya need to do, I just hope the Goddess won't make me sacrifice a ton of gaucamole in order to satisfy my yearly tithe.

Ha! Missed me!!

No fair, you can teleport but I can't. Since my rationality bank account is below zero, I don't have the funds to pay my subscription to Dark Powers Incorporated any more like you still can.

It's just like a conservative to CheeaaaTTT!!

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 10:53 PM

Btw, Ingrid, Sly knows exactly the powers of Dick Cheney. That part ain't no joke.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 10:55 PM

Ingrid's not that bad. It is just that she looks bad when teaming up with Jeffrey. Agree or disagree?

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 11:01 PM

Damn! I leave for a few hours to get some work done at church and I come back to:

* a debate over birth control vs. Viagra and whether either should be covered by insurance (yes and no, respectively...it's all about cost/benefit ratios)

* SFW and her jones for guacamole. Honey, I'll bring some to Vegas if you'd like.

* Ymar's challenge to spell his name right. I can never do it which is why I stop at "Ymar". Safer that way.

* Ingrid's apparent lack of comprehension when it comes to sarcasm. I'm pretty sure there is a serious deficit when it come to a sense of humor as well, but I could be mistaken.

* Flies getting drunk on punch. Can someone forward me the recipe for said punch? I'll need it in about 3 weeks. Thanks.

* The revelation that Sly knows Dick Cheney's powers. Dammit, woman, I TOLD you not to divulge that.

Oh, wait, I think the FBI is knocking. gotta run!

Posted by: HomefrontS. at August 30, 2008 11:13 PM

"I don't have the funds to pay my subscription to Dark Powers Incorporated..."

That's what you get for not taking the one-time, first-time offer for lifetime membership.
0>;~}

Posted by: DL Sly at August 30, 2008 11:16 PM

* The revelation that Sly knows Dick Cheney's powers. Dammit, woman, I TOLD you not to divulge that.

Oh my bad, was that supposed to be a secret?

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 11:16 PM

* a debate over birth control vs. Viagra and whether either should be covered by insurance (yes and no, respectively...it's all about cost/benefit ratios)

For example, that some people are too stupid and irresponsible to have children, thus subsidizing their birth control products is a good thing for society and the rest of us to pay out on?

* Ingrid's apparent lack of comprehension when it comes to sarcasm.

I'd rather call it poetic license, actually. Once you start constructing worlds, you go from criticizing things with sarcasm to creating things of your own.

Sarcasm was the note I wrote to Jeffrey about troll imitation.

I'm pretty sure there is a serious deficit when it come to a sense of humor as well, but I could be mistaken.

It's just a lack of imagination. The same reason why people think Rove was speaking about Obama and his pick, but in actuality his comments actually apply to Palin and McCain.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 11:19 PM

"Dammit, woman, I TOLD you not to divulge that."

I didn't.

But you just did.

tankjewberymuch.
0>;~/

Posted by: DL Sly at August 30, 2008 11:20 PM

Oh, wait, I think the FBI is knocking. gotta run!

That's what happens when you start talking about Cheney. He knows and hears you.

The revelation that Sly knows Dick Cheney's powers.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 11:20 PM

But you just did.

Okay, so we know that one of Dick Cheney's powers is to hear his name being mentioned anywhere by anybody, written or verbal, and to send FBI after them.

Right?

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 30, 2008 11:21 PM

Oral contraception is not covered by health insurance and Viagra is covered for one very simple reason. Health care is for the purpose of promoting the healthy function of the human body. If a man is impotent, that by definition means that his reproductive organs are not functioning. Therefore, Viagra is legitimate health care. Oral contraceptives, on the other hand, have the purpose of interferring with the healthy function of the female reproductive system. The pill is designed to make a woman infertile. It is therefore by definition not healthcare. I'm a registered nurse who worked for years in Women's Health.

Posted by: Terentia at August 31, 2008 01:31 AM

Oral contraception is covered by MY insurance. Which, IIRC, is one of the biggest insurers out there.


Ymar ~ the cost/benefit ratio comment had nothing to do with the intelligence level of would-be parents and had everything to do with the fact that the cost of having and raising a child are substantially higher than the cost of birth control. Stop trying to put words in my mouth...I do plenty of that all on my own thankyouverymuch.

Posted by: HomefrontS. at August 31, 2008 03:13 AM

I'd tread warily, Ymar.

Dealing with HomefrontS.(v.ix) was challenging enough; now you're facing the original.

What hath BillT wrought?

Posted by: socialism_is_error at August 31, 2008 05:19 AM

"What hath BillT wrought?"

It always comes down to that. It's Bill's fault.

Works for me.

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 31, 2008 07:31 AM

"You're a hoot, semper fi wife...despite your oddly regressive behavior. Chin up, little girl:~)"

Ingrid, you are the wind beneath my wings...

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 31, 2008 07:48 AM

It always comes down to that. It's Bill's fault.

Yes, dear.

All my fault.

Everything from the Permian Extinction down through Adam giving Eve the apple to the garbage truck getting stuck on the lawn Friday morning is my fault, and I take full responsibility for my actions.

*going off to the garden to eat worms*

Posted by: BillT at August 31, 2008 09:52 AM

Uh, Bill...

About that apple...

Back in the 70s, some snarky young woman posted the old "man as rough draft" bumper-sticker.

I actually had the grace not to point out that every fetus starts out female and only some undergo the final level of development. :)

Got room down in the garden, BillT?

Posted by: socialism_is_error at August 31, 2008 10:08 AM

"All my fault. "
Bill,

As a role model for all of the aspirants and card carrying members of the Bitter-n-clingy, Knuckle-draggersЯus Brotherhood of the Order of Things That Go BOOM or require Power Tools To Construct, you merit an old recliner of honor in the sanctity of the garage by the table saw, in front of the satellite fed big-screen as this NC2A football season commences.

So the very least I can do is to keep a six-pack cooled down for ya.

Now back to the shackles and honeydew list for me.

Posted by: bthun at August 31, 2008 10:10 AM

Awww man!! Nobody told me it was "Battle of the Sexes" Sunday.

I have guests coming for dinner this afternoon and I can't play...:(

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 31, 2008 10:17 AM

Battle? What battle? The strategic retreat to the garage forestalls The battle.

What? Nothing dear... Coming...

Posted by: bt_hovel-improvements_hun at August 31, 2008 10:26 AM

Perfect time for it, after all it's the "Labor" Day weekend.

But, I guess we'll have to defer to your domestic labors.

Have a good one, SFW.

Posted by: socialism_is_error at August 31, 2008 10:29 AM

Posted by: MathMom at August 29, 2008 03:34 PM:

My friend in Alaska just sent me a long email about her. I thought this part says a lot about her toughness, and generosity:
Her water broke at a Western Governors Conference where she had just presented a speech on opening ANWR. She called her State Trooper over and instructed him to get her on the first plane home and went to the hotel to clean up. Then she gathered her 2 staff members traveling with her, got to the airport, no labor yet, got on the plane and flew home. Labor started about 2 hours out of Anchorage. Palin alerted the pilot who called to have a Providence Medivac Helicopter waiting when the plane landed at 1:30 AM, the plane landed, stayed out on the runway, Palin was off loaded, Todd was in the helicopter, they raced to Valley Hospital and Trig was born at 6 AM.

Are we supposed to be impressed with her reckless "true grit" behavior? What pregnant woman in her right mind would board a plane in her last trimester to travel 10 HOURS from Dallas to Anchorage AFTER HER WATER BROKE? Especially a 44 year old woman who is carrying a downs baby [please tell me she's not against amniocentesis too] that may require the kind of medical care that Jet Blue does not offer? Even in first class.

Pardon my skepticism, but don't you think a candidate with questionable qualifications should at least have common sense?

Posted by: Sydney at August 31, 2008 11:00 AM

Syndey -

She knew the baby was Down's because of amniocentesis early in her pregnancy. Even so, she chose to carry the baby to term.

You can make whatever you want to out of her decision to fly home.

Happy Labor Day!

Posted by: MathMom at August 31, 2008 11:15 AM

Tell me, Sydney, have you ever given birth?

Down's syndrome is not a life threatening condition.

Besides, as MathMom stated she wasn't in labor yet. Having your water break is hardly a medical emergency. In women whose water breaks before the onset of labor (as in this case, this is only 10% of all women) labor usually begins somewhere between 12-24 hours afterwards.

It would seem she had plenty of time to get to the hospital. Perhaps having had four previous deliveries, she had enough experience not to blow a gasket.

Posted by: Cassandra at August 31, 2008 11:27 AM

Women are naturally hysterical, Cass, that's why they can't govern. So obviously Pallin's a natural target for the Dems.

Senators are okay, though. They don't have anywhere long to travel.

Ymar ~ the cost/benefit ratio comment had nothing to do with the intelligence level of would-be parents

To which comment of mine are you referring to?

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 31, 2008 11:51 AM

Pardon my skepticism, but don't you think a candidate with questionable qualifications should at least have common sense?

Yeah, but Obie has so many people watching out for him, I don't think it'll matter much.

Posted by: BillT at August 31, 2008 12:37 PM

Common sense isn't common. It's individualized. Some individuals have faulty common sense, others have highly evolved and enlightened common sense. It all depends, as the Dems would say.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 31, 2008 12:42 PM

THe idea and expectation that other people's senses should be in common with my own, is a legacy of the mass mind compositions of a next to reality future.

Such bitter philosophies clinging to anachronistic and obsolete universal ethics and reality standards must cease.

While it is valid to believe that people should think the same based upon the same outside stimuli, it is totally wrong to assume that people receive the same 5 senses that everyone else does.

Common sense is only valid when the 'sense' we are speaking of consists of people's interpretations and conclusions. Not their basic 5 senses.

However, if you happen to live in a next to reality universe, simply reverse the two premises around, switching sense as in consideration with the 5 senses in my argument, and you'll be golden. For anybody else, just stay as you are.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 31, 2008 01:29 PM

Now the question is where she decides to deliver her child.

Isn't it Mr. Casebolt who often uses the term straining at gnats?

So far, the BO/Dem machine is straining at gnats regarding Palin while trying to whistle BO past us in the dark. I suppose it takes time to edit out Hillary and insert Palin into the messages they used on Hillary in months past.

I do find their talking points right laughable when taken in the context of the race and the candidates the Dem's are fielding. But then I admit to a finely developed, ok, maybe marginally twisted sense of humor. Your yuks may vary.

Posted by: bt_what-me-worry_hun at August 31, 2008 01:52 PM

And questionable qualifications compared to...

Bwaaahahahahahaha...

Posted by: bt_what-me-worry_hun at August 31, 2008 01:55 PM

This whole thing is like that trainwreck you WANT to avert your eyes from but just can't seem to stop staring.

NOW, some KOS diarist is speculating that Trig isn't Sarah's baby. It's Sarah's daughter's baby. And apparently Alan Colmes is saying that Palin neglected her prenatal care and that's the cause of Trig's Downs Syndrome...
Via The Donovan.
http://www.thedonovan.com/archives/2008/08/living_in_diffe.html

(shakes head and goes back to work)

Posted by: Semper Fi Wife at August 31, 2008 02:32 PM

*picks up marble, blows it off and hands it back to Semper Fi Wife*

Here, this fell out.

0>;~}

Posted by: DL Sly at August 31, 2008 02:39 PM

Tell me, Sydney, have you ever given birth?

Yes, in fact we have two beautiful young boys. Thanks for asking! They are two of the reasons that I know (as any ob/gyn worth her salt will tell you) that you should get yourself to a hospital soon after your water breaks because of the increased risk of infection from the membrane rupturing. My boys are also the reason that I know firsthand that docs don't want you to fly after 36 weeks (at least mine didn't) because of the dangers from compression including edema/ blood clot formation as well as the risk of placental abruption from turbulence. In fact, most airlines prohibit women from flying at some point in the third trimester without doctor's permission (and compression stockings!). I'm sure y'all know these basics if you've ever been pregnant yourself.

But did you know that Governor Palin went into labor prematurely and that her down syndrome baby was born one month premature?

I don't know many (any?) women who would have opted to take a 10 plus hour flight under those circumstances. Would you?

Posted by: Sydney at August 31, 2008 02:48 PM

Bwahahaha. These geniuses think trisomy is related to prenatal care? This is getting better by the day.

You know it wouldn't surprise me if the democrats actually drive women to the McCain camp with this kind of nonsense.

Posted by: Allen at August 31, 2008 02:57 PM

My daughter in law's water broke, Sydney.

There is little risk from flying, Sydney. The truth is the doctors routinely advise women not to do all sorts of things because they're afraid of being sued and for no other reason.

Did you know that Governor Palin's labor was induced? She didn't go into labor prematurely.

I thought not. Kind of puts a different construction on your narrative, doesn't it?

Posted by: Cassandra at August 31, 2008 04:42 PM

Sorry. Didn't finish my thought.

My daughter in law's water broke, but her doctor didn't rush her to the hospital. Many doctor don't - they often just watch the mother to see if labor starts on its own (which it usually does, but often not for a day or even 2-3 days later).

Posted by: Cassandra at August 31, 2008 04:44 PM

The truth is the doctors routinely advise women not to do all sorts of things because they're afraid of being sued and for no other reason.

Women are delicate things that must be preserved on that pedestal, ya hear.

A woman can do things just as well as a man can, except when it comes to conservative and pro-classical liberal women. Then, they must be cautious and do things a man doesn't have to do.

As for the medical question, that's why Obama doesn't want any additional doctors. It clutters up the ability to choose, Cass!

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 31, 2008 06:33 PM

Here's how the Dem psychology operates.

They want to defend Obama from the thugs and character assassins of the right, but how to do that with McCain giving out his lies on the ad congratulating Obama? It's a tricky thing.

The solution is simple, though, if not easy. When you find somebody like Kurtz questioning dogma and the religion of Obama, go after them. Make the issue about them, so that nobody even remembers what he said about Obama. That is the Perfect Defense: when you never have to look out to defend yourself.

Obama's got a weakness in experience; so, obviously the solution is to attack McCain's ticket for lack of experience.

The Dems obviously have a problem with continuing to keep blacks in slave cages beholden to the "Man" for handouts like field and house slaves; this means that it's a good idea to attack the Republicans for a history of slavery and discrimination.

The Dems have problems with classical liberal values and protecting people's Constitutional rights, so they accuse the Republicans of using the Patriot Act and 9/11 to strip civil liberties. The best way to defend the KELO act and the Leftist fake liberal judges that voted for it, is to talk about Republican corruption and totalitarian fascism.

The Dems have problems giving women an equal chance and equal time for work done. Obviously, the solution to that is to abandon the women of Afghanistan because it is Bush's war and to take out attacks on Hillary and Pallin.

The best defense is a good offense, people.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 31, 2008 06:37 PM

a debate over birth control vs. Viagra and whether either should be covered by insurance (yes and no, respectively...it's all about cost/benefit ratios)

For example, that some people are too stupid and irresponsible to have children, thus subsidizing their birth control products is a good thing for society and the rest of us to pay out on?


I was referring to that exchange, in particular. I wasn't trying to be argumentative...just trying to clarify my thoughts. And being snarky in the process.


Sydney ~ per the Alaska Airlines (not JetBlue) website:
We do not have any restrictions or specifications for women traveling when pregnant. However, we do suggest consulting a physician prior to any air travel.


As long as her doctor cleared her to fly, I fail to see the issue. I find it amusing that those who so vehemently raise their voices for a woman's choice (to abort a pregnancy) are now up in arms over whether this woman endangered her baby by flying home to BE INDUCED after her water broke.

Irony, anyone?

My water broke early with my son. It broke 4 weeks before I was due. But the break was high and repaired itself and I didn't go into labor at the time. Nor was I ever admitted to the hospital. I did not have to be induced - I went into spontaneous labor about a week later - but just because my water had broken didn't mean I HAD to rush to the hospital. After 4 prior births, I'm pretty sure she knew her body well enough to judge whether she was in labor and whether it was safe for her and the baby if she flew home. It's not like they were flying over the Pacific. Had something happened, they could have set down anywhere along the line to get her to a hospital.


WHY IS THIS AN ISSUE??? Does it affect ANYONE here? No, it does not. Can we please stick to the issues that affect us as citizens of this country?

Posted by: HomefrontS. at August 31, 2008 07:06 PM

Irony, anyone?

This quote is appropriate.

"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!"-Sir Walter Scott

Sometimes the Soviet sponsored and created Leftist organizations can't even keep their own lies straight after awhile. And that's surprising, given their length of professionalism, conduct, history, and skills.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 31, 2008 07:46 PM

After 4 prior births, I'm pretty sure she knew her body well enough to judge whether she was in labor and whether it was safe for her and the baby if she flew home.

She got pregnant cause she didn't want to use birth control, as Jeffrey would describe it, not because she wanted to get pregnant, ya know. She doesn't know anything, given such circumstances.

Only Obama knows best.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 31, 2008 07:48 PM

Can we please stick to the issues that affect us as citizens of this country?

Fat chance of that happening with the Democrat Religion of Bamanation.

It has about as good a chance happening as "loyal opposition" principles returning (did I say returning? I mean being introduced) to the Democrat party.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 31, 2008 08:14 PM

Here's the pattern. Cindy McCain saved starving orphans from third world nations. Obama takes the credit for being the agent of change so that starving children in third world nations will be happy once more.

Palin becomes a good example of women as executives. Obama takes the credit for creating diversity.

McCain hires black people at equal pay. Obama claims credit for equal opportunity and non-discrimination while hiring the white good old boy club of his.

I mean, I could go on, but what's the point.

By the by, never worry that the Democrats will refuse to claim credit for something their opponents did.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at August 31, 2008 10:10 PM

..."loyal opposition" principles returning (did I say returning? I mean being introduced) to the Democrat party.

Followed by the departure, posthaste, of the LOPrinciples to the powder room. To gargle...

Posted by: BillT at September 1, 2008 07:57 AM

LO Principles?

Posted by: Ymarsakar at September 1, 2008 07:01 PM

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