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October 15, 2009

Oh For Pete's Sake...

What is Meghan McCain's problem?

"So I took a fun picture not thinking anything about what I was wearing but apparently anything other than a pantsuit I am a slut," she wrote, later adding "I can't even tell you how hurt I am."

Soon after, she considered closing her Twitter account altogether.

Let me go way out on a limb, here.

Pantsuit.... low cut shirt with your boobs pushed up so far they nearly touch your neck...

Hmmm. What could the difference possibly be?

Normally the VC Editorial Staff try to avoid criticizing Ms. McCain. There's no sport in it.

But in this case her behavior is so bizarre that she seems to be inviting a conservative intervention. This isn't complicated: if you don't want people to treat you like a pop tart, don't act like one. If you don't wish people to look at (or comment upon) your breasts, don't show them off to thousands of folks to whom you've yet to be formally introduced.

I can't stand when adults demand the "right" to act a certain way and then want to be shielded from the normal consequences of their actions. The term 'pearls before swine' comes to mind. Women are notorious for this, and it's silly behavior.

Update: If you can't take the *&^%$ing heat...

When Little Miss Overprivileged Victim started whining because of mean comments, throwing a Twitter fit and saying she was "getting the f**k off Twitter," I doubt she expected her own nasty f**king sh*t to come flying back in her face. But as they say down home, "Payback is a motherf**ker, b*tch."

People never cease to astonish me and Ms. McCain is no exception. For what it's worth, I don't think posting a picture of your boobs on Twitter makes you a slut. Not even sure who said that but it's hard for me to care, either.

I guess I'm just tired of people thumbing their noses at the rules and then citing those same rules as evidence they've been ill treated. Two wrongs don't make a right but it's generally unconvincing when you try to hold others to a standard you long since openly rejected.

Posted by Cassandra at October 15, 2009 06:43 PM

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Comments

What do you have against Pete?
I mean seriously....


Personally, I'm rather fond of Peter.
0>;~}

Posted by: DL Sly at October 15, 2009 07:14 PM

Haven't seen the fellow around lately, sorry to say :p

Posted by: Cassandra at October 15, 2009 11:21 PM

Showed the Elf her picture-- told him the quote about wearing "anything other than a pantsuit"-- his reply:
"She could wear a t-shirt."
While I laughed, he added: "no, really, they do make ones that don't hang to your knees, don't make you look fat and don't make you look like that. Most one-piece bathing suits cover more. Of course people will comment."

Dang, I love my guy. ^.^

Sad thing is? The picture doesn't even look all that nice-- my sister wears blouses that show roughly that much cleavage, but she doesn't do whatever it is that makes Miss McCain's boobs look like smushed water balloons, and she if someone's attention makes her uncomfortable she usually adjusts her shirt. (She's also got a nearly saint-level of calm in dealing with guys who can't figure out that "I don't think my husband would like that" when they ask someone on a date is a no.)

Posted by: Foxfier at October 15, 2009 11:52 PM

I have had plenty of friends over the years who were generously endowed and I can't recall a single one who went around dressed like that.

I agree, there's a difference between showing a bit of natural cleavage (which I think looks lovely and feminine) and this particular photo of Ms. McCain, which just strikes me as desperate and forced.

And that's weird because she is (I think) quite lovely. She has a nice figure and doesn't need to amp it up. She's extremely attractive just the way she is - most women would kill to look like that. It's not that she's showing cleavage.

It's that it's mashed all up in our faces - and hers - so that it becomes the very first thing you notice about her. It just seems odd to, in essence, scream "Look at me! Look at me!" and then be surprised when people do.

Posted by: Cassandra at October 16, 2009 05:41 AM

"So I took a fun picture not thinking anything about what I was wearing..."

...and then slapped it up on the 'Net *after* she saw how the pic turned out.

My decided lack of concern for her subsequent distress is probably an indication of a hole in the lid of the "Appreciation for the Feelings of Others" box in my brain...

Posted by: BillT at October 16, 2009 06:11 AM

Megan did a dumb thing in posting the picture. But to be fair to her, I don't think she's "whining" about being seen, commented about, or criticized. I think she's upset about being called a slut (& other equally nasty names) based on that picture (well, based on her political opinions more'n'likely, but ostensibly based on that pic), by people who ought to know better.

While Megan did a dumb thing (the result of being young, though old enough that she should've known better), I think the incident exposed more about a good number of her critics than Megan did of/about herself.

(I'd be careful, Cassandra... A few more posts "attacking" a woman, and someone might be tempted to take away your radical feminist credentials... 8>)

Posted by: repsac3 at October 16, 2009 08:03 AM

I agree that she should not be called a slut, and I think I said so :p

My problem with Ms. McCain (and this is the first time I've bothered posting about her constant attention getting tactics) is that she seems to specialize in being in-your-face and then gets annoyed when there is pushback.

It's the same reason I find it difficult to sympathize with Rush Limbaugh a lot of the time. No one should attribute false quotes to him. That is unarguably wrong.

But people tend to believe or disbelieve what is said about others based on their reputation. Ms. McCain has done little to build a good reputation and then is surprised when people are disposed to think ill of her?

Part of what she's complaining about over at the Daily Beast is fat jokes.

I don't like fat jokes, and for the most part I thought her essay was well reasoned and well argued. You'll never hear me mock Michael Moore for being obese (and he is). But my objections to him are based on his actions, not the way he looks or his weight.

The difference, though, is that you won't see Michael Moore posing in a Speedo online.

Women have a nasty habit of inviting men to check out their 'wares'... and then getting all pissy and offended when the invitation is accepted! My problem with this is that it creates a climate where men say really idiotic and offensive things and women who have done nothing to invite inspection or rude comments have to deal with the pervasive idea that all women want or deserve that kind of attention.

All I'm saying here is that her remark about wearing anything other than a pantsuit is ludicrous on its face. That particular photo is just bizarre.

There's another widely circulated photo of McCain in a low cut dress that displays a bit of cleavage that is lovely and (despite showing off her chest to advantage) really not overtly sexual. It's just a photo of a well endowed young woman who would almost have to wear a burkha to hide her 'gifts'. Had she posted a photo like that and gotten the same response, I don't think I could fairly have criticized her :p

Just as I've argued for more situational awareness from men, I think women need to take responsibility for the way they present themselves. Happy to entertain arguments about where I'm wrong.

Posted by: Cassandra at October 16, 2009 08:19 AM

Once again the old methane eruption misses the show part of the show-n-tell. I guess I'll have to use my imagination. Or not...

"I have had plenty of friends over the years who were generously endowed and I can't recall a single one who went around dressed like that.

I agree, there's a difference between showing a bit of natural cleavage (which I think looks lovely and feminine) and this particular photo of Ms. McCain, which just strikes me as desperate and forced."

From what I've noticed about this incident, here, there, and at the Other McCain's place, I'd venture that it boils down to what some of the old, stick in the mud, judgmental types used to refer to as good taste.

Starting from that point, my advice for Ms. McCain, based upon her tendency to continually shoot herself in the foot, would be to retire from the shooting sports.

Go on a semi-isolated retreat. Meaning stay out of the public limelight and be quite for a few years.

Or what Bill said with a self-inflicted wounds of the recursive type proviso.

Posted by: bt_curmudgeon_hun at October 16, 2009 08:27 AM

The difference, though, is that you won't see Michael Moore posing in a Speedo online.

Even if he did, you wouldn't be able to tell he was wearing one.

Posted by: BillT at October 16, 2009 08:41 AM

OK, I looked at the picture; maybe she's trying for poster child of "Feel Your Boobies Week".

In any event, it does look ridiculous, IMO...

Posted by: camojack at October 16, 2009 10:24 AM

Right now, I could care less about her sexual virtue, I'm more concerned about that obviously high IQ. Apparently, she's beaten our smartest scientists to making a genuine anti-gravity device.

Posted by: Yu-Ain Gonnano at October 16, 2009 10:49 AM

So I wasn't going to comment on this, as it's not my place to say what she was thinking. But I'm not really going to, so here goes. The picture is fine. Does it show more flesh than decorum would dictate? Given the audience, perhaps, but really it's tame compared to many swimsuits on the beach, and it's her body to display how and where she will.

What is ridiculous about the whole situation is that she got worked up so MUCH (or appeared to) about people's reactions. Ms. McCain, if you don't want people to talk about your picture in public, do not post your picture in public. And really, since when is ANYONE surprise that "OMG, someone on the Internet was MEAN!" As others have pointed out more eloquently than I can, female bloggers who DO NOT SEEK attention to their looks (Mary Catherine Ham, Michelle Malkin, and others) have to put up with MUCH more vile comments that the one or more idiots who called Ms. McCain a "slut".

Yes, the epithet was unjust, but really, anonymous posters will say vile things about anything. Get over it, or don't encourage them by giving them something to comment on. You don't see pictures of me on the internet, provocative or otherwise, do you?

Ok, well, not entirely true, there are a handful out there, but none provocative. Trust me, I don't think anyone would WANT to see that.

Posted by: MikeD at October 16, 2009 12:45 PM

That's just my point, Mike.

Sheesh :p I have photos of myself that I wouldn't (all other things being equal) be ashamed to put on the Internet.

But I don't do that because I know someone would make a hurtful comment and that I'd be... well... hurt. I am no prude - trust me. Anyone who knows me in real life knows my sense of humor is both offbeat and frequently off color. What can I say? It's a Taurus thing - we're earthy people.

But I try to adapt my speech and behavior to my surroundings. I don't crack the same jokes around men that I do around women, or I tone them down considerably for mixed company. I don't do this b/c I think the men will be shocked, but because of my sense that men and women need to treat each other with some delicacy.

Around women I know well enough to know they won't be offended, there isn't much I won't say. But not in mixed company.

It baffles me when women think they can ignore the sexual tension that exists in mixed company. One of the things I like about growing older is that I'm not this hot young thing anymore and consequently talking with men is more relaxed and easy with that nonsense out of the way. No one is going to become inflamed with lust at the mere sight of me :p

But to post of photo of your [really large] boobs and then be surprised when people attach sexual meaning to it or make inappropriate comments just seems silly.

I've seen other female bloggers post racy photos of themselves, and so long as they can handle the attention that doesn't bother me a whole lot.

The thing is, they never *can* handle it.

*sigh*

The only answer I can see is that maybe they shouldn't do it if they're going to get their Hanes UltraSheers all in a wad.

Posted by: Cassandra at October 16, 2009 12:59 PM

The thing is, they never *can* handle it.

I remember a long while back a female commentor saying something along the lines of "How would you like it if you were wearing tight jeans and women wouldn't stop making comments about your [anatomy]" to me.

To which I naturally replied "Ma'am, Why do you think we wore it?"

Posted by: Yu-Ain Gonnano at October 16, 2009 01:16 PM

Well, I can't help commenting on that a mite, Yu-Ain.

I don't think that's quite fair or accurate. You may have wanted girls to notice. But would you have wanted to be groped as you walked down the hall?

Would you want a bunch of girls to back you into a corner in class and grope you or bombard you with crude come-ons?

I think most guys will reflexively think, "Hell, yes!" but on further reflection I think most would admit that in reality, that behavior is more fun to contemplate as a fantasy than to deal with on a day-in, day-out basis.

First of all, it doesn't tend to be life's most attractive folks who act that way, but rather someone who doesn't attract you at all. Women put up with this all the time.

So I think the real answer is that men do that b/c they know women will look, but not grab or push themselves on them. If women behaved the way many guys do, the world would be a LOT different!

Posted by: Cassandra at October 16, 2009 01:40 PM

If women behaved the way many guys do, the world would be a LOT different!

Again, not for the better either. In my younger days, I've had a body such that women have ogled me. At the time, such attention was desireable. I actually cannot think of a single instance TO INCLUDE a woman over the age of 50 (for certain, past that, I'm a terrible judge of visual age) that offended me or made me uncomfortable. However, as Cass points out, that was eyes and not hands.

And in either event, I suspect now that I am no longer a single young man, such attention could be most uncomfortable now. Regardless of if my wife observed it or not, as I would still know. Such as I still have is for her, and no other (part of that whole "forsaking all others" bit I promised). And honestly, my self-esteem is much better now than then, and I can definitely see how being on display like a piece of meat, while ego-boosting at the time, is not as respectful to myself now. But again, bemoaning knowing now what I didn't know then is a pointless game, but one everyone seems to enjoy playing at some point. :)

Posted by: MikeD at October 16, 2009 02:23 PM

Looking is different. I never really minded the looking.

It was when guys pressed their attentions and wouldn't back off gracefully that I got very uncomfortable. And it used to be that no matter where you went or how you were dressed, there were guys like that. Don't know if it's still that way or not.

I have to say that I don't miss that aspect of things.

Posted by: Cassandra at October 16, 2009 02:27 PM

I don't think that's quite fair or accurate. You may have wanted girls to notice. But would you have wanted to be groped as you walked down the hall?

1) As you suggest, that kinda depends on if we are talking about a woman we find attractive or, say, Helen Thomas. :-) In any case, if wearing something got the kind of reaction we didn't like, the solution is simple: we just wouldn't wear that again.

2)There is a vast gulf of difference between "Those look nice" and a physical assault. The latter is inappropriate even if the lady were proudly walking around naked. And so, I assumed it didn't need to be said. My mistake. Consider it said in the most strong language unfit for mixed company.

Posted by: Yu-Ain Gonnano at October 16, 2009 02:39 PM

I have photos of myself that I wouldn't (all other things being equal) be ashamed to put on the Internet.

*koff*

Posted by: BillT at October 16, 2009 02:48 PM

*opens folder My Pictures/Family and Friends/VC*
Hmmmm....
0>:~}

Posted by: DL Sly at October 16, 2009 03:31 PM

[tapping foot]

What I *meant*, smart a$$e$, is that even if I looked long enough to find a photo that I thought didn't make me look too awful, I STILL wouldn't put it on the Internet (even if I thought I looked OK).

Given the general low class comments that abound online, if you can't take snide comments about your looks you probably shouldn't put half nekkid photos on the Intertubes. And I wouldn't be able to.

Clearly, neither can Ms. McCain.

Posted by: Get your minds out of the gutter, peoples... at October 16, 2009 05:16 PM

Hehe, I have one real picture of myself associated with my web-sona-- taken at sunset, with my back to the sun, wearing a hoodie and the balcony obscuring my build below rib-level.

Posted by: Foxfier at October 16, 2009 05:38 PM

There's more than one reason I don't post a photo online (not counting facebook and such which only certain people have access to).

Posted by: Miss Ladybug at October 16, 2009 06:45 PM

"A man does not insist on physical beauty in a woman who builds up his morale. After a while he realizes that she is beautiful -- he just hadn't noticed it at first."

It's true, Ladybug. Trust me on this.

Posted by: Lazarus Long at October 16, 2009 07:05 PM

"...she seems to specialize in being in-your-face and then gets annoyed when there is pushback."

Again, I think that much of her "annoyance" is in reference to inappropriate commentary, not all commentary. She's not disagreeing with those who were saying that posting that picture was a foolish idea or that she should've known better. (In fact, I suspect she agrees with those making that observation.)

"Women have a nasty habit of inviting men to check out their 'wares'... and then getting all pissy and offended when the invitation is accepted! My problem with this is that it creates a climate where men say really idiotic and offensive things and women who have done nothing to invite inspection or rude comments have to deal with the pervasive idea that all women want or deserve that kind of attention."

First off, I don't see Ms McCain being pissy or offended about being "checked out." She isn't complaining about the "hubba hubba's and other sexual innuendo, positive or negative" or constructive criticisms about her attire or the wisdom of posting such a thing on the internet. Her argument is only against those who turned the posting of this photo into an excuse to make really inappropriate, nasty comments about her, which I think most here seem to agree was wrong.

Meghan (& I, for that matter) believe that one should be able to control one's words and deeds, no matter how attractive or inviting the person in question appears. Someone at Daily Beast summed up the anti-Meghan rhetoric there as "Damn you Meghan McCain for posting that picture, forcing me to call you a filthy slut!!" Men (& women) should be able to control themselves and NOT say idiotic or offensive things, regardless of how a woman chooses to dress... ...and when men (or women) do make such comments, no one should not excuse their behavior on the grounds that the woman was askin' for it based on how she was dressed.

She is still learning how to carry herself in public, no doubt. (The truth of the matter is, if her name was, say, Meghan Cassandra or Meghan Repsac, this same twitpic would've received little attention or less, and rightly so.) But just because she hasn't got the balance between the public and the private right just yet, doesn't mean she deserves anything more than on topic, pointed criticism for a not so well thought through twitter post. And much of what's been written about her as regards this issue--elsewhere, anyway--has gone far beyond that. That's all I'm sayin'...

Posted by: repsac3 at October 16, 2009 07:14 PM

Men (& women) should be able to control themselves and NOT say idiotic or offensive things, regardless of how a woman chooses to dress... ...and when men (or women) do make such comments, no one should not excuse their behavior on the grounds that the woman was askin' for it based on how she was dressed.

Repsac, I agree with you, and I have said that many times here. They should. But in real life, they rarely do.

Usually when I say what you just said, I'm told that "men have to be allowed to be men". I don't understand that, because that's not my conception of how a man behaves but then I'm not a man.

My comment didn't vilify her in any way. I think she displayed extremely poor judgment and self control and I think her behavior is self destructive.

And I think that if she expects people to show restraint and respect her, she will be more successful if she learns to show some restraint herself, and respect herself.

She has a history of trash talking others and then getting bent out of shape when they return fire. I've never thought it was worth writing about, but in this case I thought it worth making the point that people will generally only treat you as well as you treat yourself. That can be a hard lesson, and it's even more painful if you insist on learning it in public.

Blogging is hard on the ego. I know that b/c I've been doing it for 6 years and every time my site gets big I end up quitting because I don't feel like dealing with the down side. If she's having trouble controlling herself, Twitter really is not the place to work that out.

That's all I'm trying to get across.

Posted by: Cassandra at October 16, 2009 08:03 PM

I guess I just wish she'd stop trying so hard to be a celebrity and find her own life. The atmosphere she's living in is toxic and it doesn't seem to be doing anything good for her.

Few young women have the maturity to handle all that attention. I doubt I would have.

Posted by: Cassandra at October 16, 2009 08:07 PM

Lazarus~

I blog anonymously, which is the primary reason I don't have a photo attached to my blog profile(s). Another reason I don't have a photo attached is that - when I started blogging, and only up until recently (since the first of the year), I didn't like how I looked in photos. I'm still not where I want to be, but I'm not embarrassed anymore.

Right now, the men I'm exposed to (in person, at least) seem to give more weight to physical appearance. When I am out places with my sisters - 10.5 & 14.5 years younger than me, and both thin and pretty - I feel invisible to men. They don't notice me when my sisters are around. Someone is going to have to prove to me that the quote you provided is, in fact, true....

Posted by: Miss Ladybug at October 16, 2009 08:42 PM

There's more than one reason I don't post a photo online...

I don't usually use photos of myself in my posts because I use pix to expand on the subject I'm writing about, and sticking *me* in there might startle people enough that they skip down to the next topic...

Posted by: BillT at October 17, 2009 05:44 AM

But you HAVE posted photos of yourself online on the blog.

And, I don't believe that seeing you would make people skip to the next topic...

Posted by: Miss Ladybug at October 17, 2009 10:47 AM

Ya gotta admit, Miss L, the 27" zipper *could be* unnnerving for some.


Um, Mr. DeBille?
I'm runnnin' out of *nnn's*
0>;~}

Posted by: DL Sly at October 17, 2009 11:57 AM

*knock-knock-knock*

Delivery for Doc Lady Sly -- sign here, please.

Ummmmm -- *legibly*...

Thank you, ma'am.

Okay, Gunther, back the semi into the driveway and unhitch the trailer...

*boop* *boop* *boop* *boop*

*pfsssssssssssssss*

*clankrattle* *ka-thud*

Posted by: BillT at October 17, 2009 01:15 PM

And, I don't believe that seeing you would make people skip to the next topic...

It does when the next topic is "What color were dinosaurs?"

Posted by: BillT at October 17, 2009 01:24 PM

But that's got nothin' to do with what you LOOK like, now does it?

;-)

Posted by: Miss Ladybug at October 17, 2009 01:33 PM

Well, I *have* been complimented on the luxuriance of my mustache.

It's been compared quite favorably with Spanish moss...

Posted by: BillT at October 17, 2009 02:18 PM

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