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October 05, 2010

Well It's About Time....

Yet another reason we need to be more like Europe:

The European Union Court of Justice has ruled that working fathers in Spain have the same right to breastfeeding leave as do moms.

Thursday's ruling grants Spanish dads the same rights as the mother of their child to leave work up to twice a day for a total of an hour or to shorten their workday by 30 minutes for the first nine months of the baby's life.

The court called the law "an unjustified discrimination on grounds of sex" that fathers weren't granted breastfeeding leave in the same instances as women were.

The statute, challenged by Pedro Manuel Roca Alvarez, didn't allow dads to take the same leave afforded to women if the mother of their children didn't work or were self-employed.

And we call ourselves a free country....

Posted by Cassandra at October 5, 2010 08:56 AM

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Comments

Free to discriminate as we choose. Rather than free to be stupidly inclusive.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at October 5, 2010 09:09 AM

Unjustified, eh? I wonder would would constitute a justification?

Posted by: Grim at October 5, 2010 09:23 AM

Confused... do they have something in the water in Europe that we haven't heard of?

Posted by: Cousin Dave at October 5, 2010 09:58 AM

do they have something in the water in Europe that we haven't heard of?

No, but they do have a much longer history of subservience to their Betters than do we. And a much longer history of a belief/demand of entitlement. "I exist, and you're rich. Therefore you owe me." And so we get the Greeks and the French rioting for their "right" to freeload off others.

A British member of the EU Parliament has said that he (and Europe) are living our future if we don't right ourselves.

Eric Hines

Posted by: E Hines at October 5, 2010 10:40 AM

Dads were already allowed to take the time off if the mother was employed full-time.

The law was just altered so that it doesn't matter what the employment status of the mother is during the first nine months.

And since the leave time is unpaid, how is that considered freeloading?

The parents are trading wages to spend time with their newborn. It isn't mandatory that they do that, but I see nothing wrong with providing them the option.

Posted by: Craig at October 5, 2010 11:33 AM

You seeing nothing wrong with it (when you don't have to deal with any of the consequences) is not a convincing argument, Craig :p

Many jobs (mine included) are what you'd call "presence" jobs, in that a real live body has to be there in order for the work to get done. A good example is customer service or sales clerking.

For a small business, having the government tell you that you HAVE to let someone work a shorter shift deprives you of the freedom to schedule according to demand and the needs of your customers.

Even in your world, Craig, there are consequences. If you can't see the difference between employers voluntarily allowing workers to do X and the government DEMANDING that employers allow workers to do X, there's a big gaping hole in your world view.

Posted by: Cassandra at October 5, 2010 11:46 AM

Yeah, I know most employers don't voluntarily do anything for their employees and this case is a prime example of that.

Posted by: Craig at October 5, 2010 12:18 PM

Beside the point, Craig. As usual.

Posted by: Cassandra at October 5, 2010 12:27 PM

Over at The Motley Fool's investing message boards, we generally operate under the philosophy of DFTT. But YMMV.

Eric Hines

Posted by: E Hines at October 5, 2010 01:25 PM

My "troll" point is that employees are not slaves and more choices are better than none.

Posted by: Craig at October 5, 2010 01:35 PM

...employees are not slaves and more choices are better than none.

Indeed they are not. They are free to leave and find an employer who will let them trade pay for time off without being forced to.

Funny how you are all in favor of choices for some people, but not for those you don't like. For them, choice should be compelled.

Posted by: Cassandra at October 5, 2010 01:59 PM

In my experience, choice has to be compelled from employers most, if not all, of the time.

Posted by: Craig at October 5, 2010 02:05 PM

If it's compelled, it's not choice. But then you knew that, didn't you Craig?

Posted by: Cassandra at October 5, 2010 02:06 PM

In my experience, choice has to be compelled from employers most, if not all, of the time.

Then you either need to find a new line of work or learn the art of negotiating with your employer.

Posted by: BillT at October 5, 2010 02:49 PM

Exactly.

In 12 years my current employers have pretty much never said no to anything I've asked of them, regardless of how much money it cost them or whether it required them to go out of their way to accommodate me.

If you have to compel others to meet you halfway, that speaks volumes about what they think they're getting from the partnership. If they're being unreasonable, you need to walk away.

If you find that people always seem to be unreasonable, chances are you are doing something wrong.

Posted by: Cassandra at October 5, 2010 02:56 PM

So now's Craig an educated professor on things European. He of the "I don't like accents" philosophy.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at October 5, 2010 07:49 PM

Craig, if you had employees, you'd work em like slaves and always find ways to take from them and give to yourself.

It's one of the perks of subscribing to the Church of Liberalism, aka Cult of the Left.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at October 5, 2010 07:51 PM

But then you knew that, didn't you Craig?

Freedom is slavery. Slavery is freedom.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at October 5, 2010 07:52 PM

If it's compelled, it's not choice. But then you knew that, didn't you Craig?

More choices for the employee, not for the employer. But then you knew that.

Then you either need to find a new line of work or learn the art of negotiating with your employer.

LOL! Tell that to every Wal-Mart employee you talk to, not me.

I'm doin' just fine, thanks!

Posted by: Craig at October 6, 2010 10:25 AM

Ah Craig.. if only you could find a way to eliminate those pesky consequences.

One's ability to negotiate in a non-coerced "bargain" depends on what one has to offer the other party.

Having worked in WalMart type jobs until I decided to increase my value to employers by obtaining more training and education, I can attest that the more replaceable you are, the weaker your bargaining position.

Now Craig would like to use government force to make employers treat employees whose skills are a dime a dozen like employees who possess a variety of marketable skills. This, you see, is "fair".

Just as it's "fair" to privilege fathers over single men by offering them a benefit that isn't actually need based (since no father I've seen has been able to breastfeed). Fairness is entirely subjective and so long as it's only invoked to support things Craig likes, it's all good!

Posted by: Cassandra at October 6, 2010 11:03 AM

LOL! Tell that to every Wal-Mart employee you talk to, not me.
I'm doin' just fine, thanks!

So, when you said, "In my experience, choice has to be compelled from employers most, if not all, of the time," you meant that you, personally, *hadn't* had the experience?

Posted by: BillT at October 6, 2010 12:48 PM

Cassandra,

Single men who are fathers of newborns can get the benefit, they don't have to be married.

And Wal-mart employees have babies, too. If they are willing to surrender $7.25/day of their hard-earned money to see their newborn, I say let them have the opportunity.

BillT,

Of course I have worked at places that treat their employees like crap because they can. I just didn't stay there very long.

Posted by: Craig at October 6, 2010 01:47 PM

I just didn't stay there very long.

You would have stayed there until you rotted, but I guess that's only the Socialist Utopia fit for Cubans and other undesirables from your view.

Posted by: Ymarsakar at October 7, 2010 05:16 PM

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